Daniel 2, 7 and 8 - Identifying the 3 actors

[Diaste]

 

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level).  But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books.

So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 

No. Scripture says, "8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn,"

And...

"20The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,"

So this little horn is out of the four must be from Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece or the Mideast. From history we know the Diadochi consolidated power and ruled these 4 regions. It has nothing to do with Italy.

To back up, I looks to me like the prophecies in Dan 2, 7 and 8 are all connected. We are seeing the same 4 kingdoms or rulers with various attributes and characteristics, personalities even, in an effort to fully and immutably identify the actors. This makes the best sense as otherwise we have 8, 10, 12 actors to deal with. Obviously you see this is the case. 

It's narrowed down by progression to the end of days kingdom the leads from Alexander to the Diadochi and to the 'little horn' arising from one of them. Neither Rome nor the RCC came from one of the four notable ones that stood up after the death of Alexander.

I don't know about any spiritual conotations of Daniel in the chapters under examination. Gabriel was told to give the understanding of the vision, " 16And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision."

Gabriel goes on to give a temporal interpretation to the vison;

"20The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

Which aligns perfectly with historical events. That is the manifestation of the prophetic vision of Dan 8.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future.  Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast".  And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses.

So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse).

If the visons are all related, and they are, then the Iron kingdom is the fourth beast "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.", and is the little horn that came out of one of the 'four notable ones'

So then the toes of the statue are related to the Iron kingdom, but not the same. In like manner the toes and horns are of the same ilk. Because of the clay in the toes it may be that only the part which is iron comes from the legs of iron in the statue and the clay are those attempting to join with the iron but cannot. Or as I conclude it's the same iron kingdom but weaker by internal failings and it's integration into the clay of various people, groups and cultures. 

The only kingdom I see that fits with the iron of Dan 2, is "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns." and "And out of one of them came forth a little horn," is Islam. Islam was a terrible scourge for 700 years and "devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it". The diversity here is a clue in that Islam was and is theocratic where Babylon, the Persians and Alexander were monarchies.

Where Babylon, Persia and Grecian rule allowed and encouraged freedom of commerce, education, religion and finance, Islam did not. Rome was nearly identical to the former and not at all like the latter. 

The Ten Toes then are what's left of Islam as it is today where they are spreading out in false assimilation with other cultures. Look at the Islamic politicians in the US. If it's not the fulfillment of "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." it's certainly stark evidence of the beginning of it.

 

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. 

So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.?  I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD.
 

 

The little horn must fit "And out of one of them came forth a little horn,". The 'one of them' is of the "four notable ones ". The four notable ones are Antigonus, Ptolemy, Cassander and Seleucus. None are the antecedents of Rome.

[Revelation Man]

On 1/14/2021 at 6:59 AM, Charlie744 said:

As everyone knows, Daniel provides us with interesting and changing symbols in these 3 chapters for the 4 kingdoms that will take place before the second coming. He uses a metal image in 2, and animals in both 7 and 8. There are progressions to be interpreted not only from the north to south (kingdoms), but also from east to west. So Daniel is providing us with 3 characteristics or features for each kingdom (east to west), and also 3 different means of conquering or changes to the next kingdom (north to south). This certainly provides or offers a lot of information for us to unpack and interpret.

Specifically, it is the 4th kingdom that has everyone's attention and especially the 3 actors that are mentioned / identified, and like the 4th kingdom itself, these 3 actors are quite unusual and mysterious and extremely difficult to identify. And as a direct result, many or perhaps most have placed these 3 actors some 2,000 years after the crucifixion.

So the purpose of this post is to try and identify these 3 actors and the period(s) they may be found.

1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level).  But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books.

So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 

 

2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future.  Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast".  And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses.

So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse).
 

3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. 

So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.?  I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD.
 

This means, if correct, that ALL 3 actors arrived or were on scene either at the time of the crucifixion or soon after (500 AD), AND most importantly, all 3 must and will continue until the second coming.

 

Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!!

You MUST look for them as though you around say 600 AD........ There you have the entire Tanakh at your disposal, you have the NT (but can not access Revelation UNTIL these 3 actors are identified), AND you have an understanding of the ACTUAL historical events up to 600 AD.

NO CHEATING ALOUD - IGNORE REVELATION AS A POSSIBLE SOURCE OR EXPLANATION TO INTERPRET DANIEL.

I hope there is some interest in this topic and will / can accept the manner it is presented.... there is a reason for everything. We can take each actor one at a time or not..... thank you, Charlie

 

 

The first place you go off the rails is not understanding that the Little Horn is a MAN, Dan. 7:11 tells us this, its a SIMPLE VERSE, how can you misdiagnose this? It clearly says his BODY is DESTROYED and then he is CAST INTO HELL. I mean, if you simply read, you can't call the Little Horn the Papal or Papacy. This came from OTHER MEN !! I heard it before you did, and discounted it as rubbish 30 years ago.

As per the Metals vs. the Animal Beasts. One was King Nebuchadnezzar's dreams, thus he saw the kingdoms as precious metals, the other dream was Daniels, thus God showed him these kingdoms as suffocating Beasts. They are the same of course. But the 10 isn't understood. It doesn't mean 10. God uses numbers, 12 for fullness 10 and 7 for completeness, thus we see in Rev. that the 7 eyes and 7 spirits means God sees all and is omnipotent. We see in Rev. 2:10 that Smyrna was to have TRIBULATION for 10 days, but that means for the complete church age period, it doesn't actually mean 10 days, LOL. 

Thus the 10 TOES = the Complete number of Kingdoms in Europe at any given time, which CAN NOT SEEM to UNIFY !! Thus they are called Iron & Clay, they can not cleave to one another, even by the seed of men (Royal Marriage attempts). So, we have the Babylonian kingdom (Gold), the Persian kingdom (Silver), the Greek kingdom (Brass) and then the Roman kingdom (Iron), then we have the MORTAL WOUND of Rev. 13, but its also seen via the Iron & Clay feet with 10 toes, the kingdom FRACTURES and will not come back together, thus the 10 toes represent a FRACTURED EUROPE, (whatever that number may be at any given time). It could have been 5 kingdoms that ruled Europe in 700 AD, or maybe 12, then it might have been 15 in 1700, and as we saw with England there were 27 kingdoms in Europe, then when England left there was less. The number 10 therefore is used to INDENTIFY an ever changing Europe. Thus the 10 COME UP FIRST, of course they do, the Anti-Christ is born in Europe, that is what this basically means. Dan. 8 tells us he has to be born in Greece. There is no Beast for nigh 2000 years because Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region have not been under control of anyone, because they was no Israel until 1948, God saw them as Dead Men's Bones, thus there could be NO BEAST over Israel. The Church delivered the MORTAL WOUND, we turned Rome from an Anti-God Pagan Nation into a Christian Nation. This whole thought process that the RCC is the Little Horn is asinine brother, it is nonsensical. You are following men who did not have a clue what they spoke about 50-75 years ago when they came out with this stuff. 

The 10 toes are the European Union right now. There is your identification brother. The Anti-Christ arises to POWER AMONGST the 10 (however many nations make up the E.U.  thus we get the number 10 which means the complete European Nations) He has to be born in Greece. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

35 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The first place you go off the rails is not understanding that the Little Horn is a MAN, Dan. 7:11 tells us this, its a SIMPLE VERSE, how van you misdiagnose this?

RM, thanks for your comments! I agree with you- the little horn is a man. This is the one who claims to be God on earth, the one who believes he has been given the “keys to the kingdom”. This is he who is the head of papal Rome. Pagan Rome is definitely the 4th kingdom but of course it does not remain as such over the next 2,000 years. It is, regardless of its form throughout the coming years, is still the “beast”.

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It clearly says his BODY is DESTROYED and then he is CAST INTO HELL.

Before you jump to the end times maybe we can stay with the beginning of the 4th kingdom. This is that kingdom that comes after Greece. This is the last kingdom that will continue until the end times. 

Out from this kingdom or “beast” will arise the 10 horns. Then another “little horn” will also come out of the “beast”. This occurs after the 3rd kingdom of Greece.

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I mean, if you simply read, you can't call the Little Horn the Papal or Papacy.

I don’t see how you can say that... the 4th kingdom is the “beast”, the horns arise or come out from this 4th kingdom and especially clear (to me), is this little horn attempts to be God on earth and as papal Rome replaces pagan / military Rome. 

The “little horn” continues on to the end times as does the “beast” (whatever form / power it takes on throughout the coming centuries). 

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 This came from OTHER MEN !! I heard it before you did, and discounted it as rubbish 30 years ago

I can not comment on this ... however I can assure you that I have identified all 3 actors that are mentioned/spoken of in Daniel. ALL 3 came after the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the 4th kingdom is no different... each comes right after the previous kingdom. The only difference is the 4th kingdom remains until the end times where God will destroy it along with all who opposed Him. Now, if you (not you personally) can not accept or see the beast and the little horn is pagan Rome and the papacy (pope), respectively, there is absolutely NO reason to identify the 10 horns! 

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As per the Metals vs. the Animal Beasts. One was King Nebuchadnezzar's dreams, thus he saw the kingdoms as precious metals, the other dream was Daniels, thus God showed him these kingdoms as suffocating Beasts. They are the same of course.

I agree here.. as mentioned there are many messages, characteristics, patterns, etc., to extract from the 3 separate symbols / images identifying the 4 kingdoms. Each kingdom has its own progression from 2 to 7 to 8. And each image has their own progression from the 1st to the 4th kingdom.... the 4th kingdom is the most important and moves from the physical in 2 to the physical / spiritual in 8. And by spiritual I mean that the 3 actors are no longer a war between 

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But the 10 isn't understood. It doesn't mean 10. God uses numbers, 12 for fullness 10 and 7 for completeness, thus we see in Rev. that the 7 eyes and 7 spirits means God sees all and is omnipotent. We see in Rev. 2:10 that Smyrna was to have TRIBULATION for 10 days, but that means for the complete church age period, it doesn't actually mean 10 days, LOL. 

Thus the 10 TOES = the Complete number of Kingdoms in Europe at any given time, which CAN NOT SEEM to UNIFY !! Thus they are called Iron & Clay, they can not cleave to one another, even by the seed of men (Royal Marriage attempts). So, we have the Babylonian kingdom (Gold), the Persian kingdom (Silver), the Greek kingdom (Brass) and then the Roman kingdom (Steel), then we have the MORTAL WOUND of Rev. 13, but its also seen via the Iron & Clay feet with 10 toes, the kingdom FRACTURES and will not come back together, thus the 10 toes represent a FRACTURED EUROPE, (whatever that number may be at any given time). It could have been 5 kingdoms that ruled Europe in 700 AD, or maybe 12, then it might have been 15 in 1700, and as we saw with England there were 27 kingdoms in Europe, then when England left there was less. The number 10 therefore us used to INDENTIFY and ever changing Europe. This the 10 COME UP FIRST, of curse the do, the Anti-Christ is born in Europe, that is what this basically means. Dan. 8 tells us he has to be born in Greece. There is no Beast for nigh 2000 years because Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region have not been under control of anyone, because they was no Israel until 1948, God saw them as Dead Men's Bones, thus there could be NO BEAST. The Church delivered the MORTAL WOUND, we turned Rome from an Anti-God Pagan Nation into a Christian Nation. This who RCC is the Little Horn is asinine brother, it is nonsensical. You are following men who did not have a clue what they spoke about 50-75 years ago when they come out with this stuff. 

The 10 toes are the European Union right now. There is your identification brother. The Anti-Christ arises to POWER AMONGST the 10 (how ever many nations make up the E.U.) He has to be born in Greece. 

Unfortunately, we disagree on this, yet I can definitely agree that your opinion and other similar interpretations are the mainstream. But as I mentioned in my earlier posts, the focus in the 4th kingdom is no longer about man v man and the conflicts and wars between whatever group, region, religious affiliation, political powers that happen to be in power over the following 2,000 years. The focus of the 4th kingdom must be about God’s Plan of Salvation. How the powers of the “beast” (again, any worldly power), and the “little horn” (RCC/Pope), continues to corrupt God’s Word and His Plan for us. 

There are only two factors we should concern ourselves with in Daniel’s 4th kingdom: those powers that arise during the coming years that take man away from God- promotes gold, silver, power and control, warring and murder and everything worldly! This is the “beast” that can not be shown or compared to any earthly animal- it does represent all the 3 previous animals mentioned in Daniel and then some! But the little horn is the one who goes after God Himself! He professes to he God on earth, can forgive sins, changes God’s laws and times... this is the papacy and these are the two powers attempting to keep man from His Plan of Salvation. It is a spiritual war ... but this does not mean that man will not continue to have wars! But that is what man does... God wants us to focus on Him... the 4th kingdom and its 3 actors are involved in a spiritual conflict to either accept Jesus as our Savior And Messiah and keep His commandments or follow the world and all it offers.. Not only do we see a progression with the symbols and images in 2,7 & 8, but also from chapter 1 to 12.... both are moving from a purely physical world and all their concerns to the real issue or concern (spiritual) which is the saving of man through His Plan. 

Everyone tries to identify China, Russia, Islam or Syria, Iraq, the EU, etc., as the various actors in both Revelation AND then take them back to Daniel. This is so wrong! Without looking to Revelation we should interpret Daniel... THEN we will be able to carry it forward to Revelation. The reason folks look to Revelation to try and interpret Daniel is because they have completely given up on identifying these 3 actors AND other significant issues in Daniel- there are about 10 major misinterpretations in today’s understanding of Daniel especially chapter 11! Again, everyone looks to our history books to try and identify the actors and conflicts around the post Alexander period... but this is so wrong. It is ALL about what takes place in the 4th kingdom and that begins with pagan Rome. The focus is how we (the world) receives, accepts, corrupts, etc., His Plan of Salvation which of course is THE CROSS. 

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

RM, thanks for your comments! I agree with you- the little horn is a man. This is the one who claims to be God on earth, the one who believes he has been given the “keys to the kingdom”. This is he who is the head of papal Rome. Pagan Rome is definitely the 4th kingdom but of course it does not remain as such over the next 2,000 years. It is, regardless of its form throughout the coming years, is still the “beast”.

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Wrong, he's just like the other 6 Beast Heads, he's a Gentile King. We are also told exactly where he is born at, in Dan. 8:9, which says he Waxes Great TOWARDS THE East and South, via the Four Generals/kingdom struggle of the Grecian kingdoms, thus he can only conquer coming from the Northwest, thus only Macedonia or Greece can be his birthplace, and ONLY Greece is in the E.U. he also has to have Assyrian blood. Thus he is a Turk, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U. This is basic stuff, when people stop imagining things via listening to other men they might grasp these things. If you had just asked God He would have shown you, instead, you relied on Armstrong and company, a bunch of charlatans. 

We are shown that he makes Agreements with Israel and the MANY and those agreements can be seen right now by looking up the European Neighborhood Policy agreements between the E.U. and Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. All one has to do is look up the Dan. 11:40-43 nations he conquers, its the Whole Mediterranean Sea Region. The Pope ain't conquering nations, LOL. There was zero thought put into this, it came straight from the deceiver. Armstrong was hooked like a guppy.

There is NO BEAST for 2000 years, that is why its called FRACTURED Iron and Clay. It will not CLEAVE means its not a unified Beast, but you guys invent Papal Rome, SMH. We see in Rev. 13 that there is a Mortal Wound to the Beast, do you not get that? That means it is NO MORE.

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Before you jump to the end times maybe we can stay with the beginning of the 4th kingdom. This is that kingdom that comes after Greece. This is the last kingdom that will continue until the end times. 

Out from this kingdom or “beast” will arise the 10 horns. Then another “little horn” will also come out of the “beast”. This occurs after the 3rd kingdom of Greece.

No, we don't play by your rules where God's Prophecy is concerned. The Little Horn is a MAN who is cast into Hell. In both Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. 

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t see how you can say that... the 4th kingdom is the “beast”, the horns arise or come out from this 4th kingdom and especially clear (to me), is this little horn attempts to be God on earth and as papal Rome replaces pagan / military Rome. 

The “little horn” continues on to the end times as does the “beast” (whatever form / power it takes on throughout the coming centuries). 

Which means Europe or the end times E.U. when the 10 have reunited as one, and the 10 means COMPLETE NUMBR THEREOF, not 10. The Little Horn does no such thing, he ARISES AMONGST THE 10 (Europe) in the End Times, but only after the 10 have UNIFIED AGAIN as feet and toes would suggest. There has been NO BEAST for nigh 2000 years because there was no Israel to Beast over, the bible is about Israel, but even though God tells you in Ezekiel 37 that Israel was NON EXISTENT, you still try to insist there was a Beast over them, no, the Beast received a Mortal Wound for nigh 2000 years, else there would be far more than 7 Beast Heads that ruled over the area. We could add in the Ottoman Empire and England as 2 more. This astonishes me that people still buy into this Papal stuff, its mind boggling.

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I can not comment on this ... however I can assure you that I have identified all 3 actors that are mentioned/spoken of in Daniel. ALL 3 came after the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the 4th kingdom is no different... each comes right after the previous kingdom. The only difference is the 4th kingdom remains until the end times where God will destroy it along with all who opposed Him. Now, if you (not you personally) can not accept or see the beast and the little horn is pagan Rome and the papacy (pope), respectively, there is absolutely NO reason to identify the 10 horns! 

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You know where it cane from, NOT YOU. And you have identified no such thing, because this stuff is bogus. Be warned, you are heading down a DEEP DARK RABBIT HOLE. 

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, we disagree on this, yet I can definitely agree that your opinion and other similar interpretations are the mainstream. But as I mentioned in my earlier posts, the focus in the 4th kingdom is no longer about man v man and the conflicts and wars between whatever group, region, religious affiliation, political powers that happen to be in power over the following 2,000 years. The focus of the 4th kingdom must be about God’s Plan of Salvation. How the powers of the “beast” (again, any worldly power), and the “little horn” (RCC/Pope), continues to corrupt God’s Word and His Plan for us. 

 

No, you are just wrong, two people with disagreements both have to have worthy arguments, this is not worthy brother, this stuff is off the deep end brother, its just not a debatable argument. I also tell Joel Richardson and his followers the same thing about an Islamic Anti-Christ, there is no such thing, BOTH are head fakes by Satan. God's SYMETRY doesn't change midstream brother. Babylon = Powerful Nation, Persia = Powerful Nation, Greece = Powerful Nation, Rome = Powerful Nation, NEXT UP The E.U. = a Powerful Nation. Not some Church, I mean, this just awful brother, it is not the way God does things. He has a False Prophet, which is a Jewish High Priest who is the 2nd Beast. 

God Bless.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Wrong, he's just like the other 6 Beast Heads, he's a Gentile King. We are also told exactly where he is born at, in Dan. 8:9, which says he Waxes Great TOWARDS THE East and South, via the Four General/kingdom struggle of the Grecian kingdoms, thus h can only conquer coming from the Northwest, this only Macedonia or Greece can be his birthplace, and ONLY Greece is in the E.U. he also has to have Assyrian blood. Thus he is a Turk, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U. This is basic stuff, when people stop imagining things via listening to other men, if you had just asked God He would have shown you, instead, you relied on Armstrong and company, a bunch of charlatans. 

We re shown that he makes Agreements with Israel and the MANY and those agreements can be seen right now by looking up the European Neighborhood Policy agreements between the E.U. and Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. All one has to do is look up the Dan. 11:40-43 nations he conquers, its the Whole Mediterranean Sea Region. The Pope ain't conquering nations, LOL. There was zero thought put into this, it came straight from the deceiver. 

There is NO BEAST for 2000 years, that is why its called FRACTURED Iron and Clay. It will not CLEAVE means its not a unified Beast, but you guys invent Papal Rome, SMH. We see in Rev. 13 that there is a Mortal Wound to the Beast, do you not get that? 

No, we don't play by your rules where God's Prophecy is concerned. The Little Horn is a MAN who is cast into Hell. In both Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. 

Which means Europe or the end times E.U. when the 10 have reunited as one, and the 10 means COMPLETE NUMBR THEREOF, not 10. The Little Horn does no such thing, he ARISES AMONGST THE 10 (Europe) in the End Times, but only after the 10 have UNIFIED AGAIN as feet and toes would suggest. There has been NO BEAST for nigh 2000 years because there was no Israel to Beast over, the bible is about Israel, but even though God tells you in Ezekiel 37 that Israel was N ON EXISTENT, you still try to insist there was a Beast over them, no, the Beast received a Mortal Wound for nigh 2000 years, else there would be far more than 7 Beast Heads that ruled over the area. We could add in the Ottoman Empire and England as 2 more. This astonishes me that people still buy into this Papal stuff, its mind boggling.

You know where it cane from, NOT YOU. And you have identified no such thing, because this stuff is bogus. Be warned, you are heading down a DEEP DARK RABBIT HOLE. 

No, you are just wrong, two disagreements have to be worthy arguments, this is not worthy brother, this stuff is off the deep end brother, its just not a debatable argument. I also tell Joel Richardson and his followers the same thing about an Islamic Anti-Christ, there is no such thing, BOTH are head fakes by Satan. God's SYMETRY doesn't change midstream brother. Babylon = Powerful Nation, Persia = Powerful Nation, Greece = Powerful Nation, Rome = Powerful Nation, NEXT UP The E.U. = a Powerful Nation. Not some Church, I mean, this just awful brother, it is not the way God does things. He has a False Prophet, which is a Jewish High Priest who is the 2nd Beast. 

God Bless.

Well, I thank you for your thoughts..... Charlie

 

[douggg]

On 1/14/2021 at 6:59 AM, Charlie744 said:

Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!!

that's funny, Charlie.   A pre-condition you want is to ignore what Jesus presented in Revelation.

 

Pilate said,  what crucify your king?  (Jesus was rejected by his own people to be their King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord).

"We have no king but Caesar".

 

little horn>Antichrist>beast - mini timeline.

 

little horn person - king of the Roman Empire manifest as the EU endtimes.

Then becomes - the king of Israel/messiah, Antichrist, following Gog/Magog.

Then betrays the Jews, and the mt Sinai covenant, and become the beast - dictator of the EU.

 

The person will be a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudians.

The ten kings are leaders of the EU, not yet in place.

 

I have 8 videos on my You Tube channel (Douggg1000) on the Antichrist.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by douggg

[Charlie744]

28 minutes ago, douggg said:

that's funny, Charlie.   A pre-condition you want is to ignore what Jesus presented in Revelation.

 

Pilate said,  what crucify your king?  (Jesus was rejected by his own people to be their King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord).

"We have no king but Caesar".

 

little horn>Antichrist>beast - mini timeline.

 

little horn person - king of the Roman Empire manifest as the EU endtimes.

Then becomes - the king of Israel/messiah, Antichrist, following Gog/Magog.

Then betrays the Jews, and the mt Sinai covenant, and become the beast - dictator of the EU.

 

The person will be a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudians.

The ten kings are leaders of the EU, not yet in place.

 

I have 8 videos on my You Tube channel (Douggg1000) on the Antichrist.

 

 

 

 

Thanks dougg, I understand why you and so many others would not want this constraint placed on them in order to try and identify the 3 actors in Daniel without looking to Revelation.... it is because that is what EVERYONE (well maybe only 99%) of those interested in Daniel rely on Revelation and NOT Daniel ALONE.  So I simply asked them to try and take this approach and see if there is a very different outcome ..... and there is...... Everyone is intellectually, emotionally and certainly in many cases financially invested in the "current interpretation" of Daniel.  When I first started to read / learn / think about Daniel I read all the papers / interpretations / opinions, etc., of so many scholars and today's theologians, commentators, authors, TV personalities and evangelists, etc., and they essentially mirrored each other. There were / are one or two minor groups or folks who have some disagreements with them but even they do not stray too far from the "accepted view". Since I had NO previous understanding of Daniel and certainly Revelation, I came in cold and read their thoughts, compared them to others - even those within this "majority of opinion" and realized just how many contradictions THEY had between them!  This then became an opportunity to ask why THEY had such disagreement among themselves and I had one advantage - I did not or have any reason to look to Revelation for the possible answers..... Why - EVERYONE INSTRUCTED ME THAT IF I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND REVELATION I SHOULD FIRST STUDY DANIEL.....and I did just that! Now I have found that everyone in the current majority relies on Revelation to understand Daniel.

So, if you are willing to take this approach, which is not unreasonable, we can try and identify each actor by reading the verses in Daniel alone.  Daniel speaks to 3 different periods - obviously the truly historical period from captivity to the Greek kingdom. Then it speaks to the coming Messiah / the 4th kingdom period and His Plan of Salvation (the time of Jesus beginning with pagan Rome and includes the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD), and then there is a 3rd period which is when the Word of God - His Gospel is to be spread to all the world - the Messiah had come, was crucified and rose from the dead. He sent His Holy Spirit to us who would be with us and never leave us. But it also contained ALL the events and actors that would soon come to power to corrupt this Word of God. This is the most important reading in Daniel - not concerned with another 100 or so wars or conflicts throughout the next 2,000 years -they will always take place - nothing knew to mankind and there is no real value for Daniel to write about them -whether it is a conflict some 200, 1000 or even 2,000 years after the crucifixion..... one was or conflict is no different than the other even if it is as horrible as the world wars in the 20th century.  The verses in Daniel that speak to the conflicts after His crucifixion focus on a spiritual warfare - His Word, His sacrifice, His Plan of Salvation to both Jew and Gentile against those "beast" and the "little horn" who are only interested in THEIR comfort, their power, their way of life, their plan or identification of success, their worldly views and practices, anything other than what He preached. This is the final battle, not a China, Russia, Islam, EU, etc., they have been around for thousands of years -just in a different name or nationality, etc. Daniel is ONLY A HISTORY BOOK FOR THE FIRST 5 OR SO CHAPTERS, THEN IT BEGINS TO MOVE IN THIS DIRECTION - FOCUSING ON HIS PLAN OF SALVATION NOT ANOTHER HISTORY LESSON THAT FOR THE MOST PART WE HAVE MATCHED OR PARTIALLY MATCHED TO OUR HISTORY BOOKS.

So, if you are interested in identifying these actors without Revelation .... fine, if not that is okay as well, Charlie

 

[douggg]

28 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks dougg, I understand why you and so many others would not want this constraint placed on them in order to try and identify the 3 actors in Daniel without looking to Revelation.... it is because that is what EVERYONE (well maybe only 99%) of those interested in Daniel rely on Revelation and NOT Daniel ALONE.  So I simply asked them to try and take this approach and see if there is a very different outcome ..... and there is...... Everyone is intellectually, emotionally and certainly in many cases financially invested in the "current interpretation" of Daniel.  When I first started to read / learn / think about Daniel I read all the papers / interpretations / opinions, etc., of so many scholars and today's theologians, commentators, authors, TV personalities and evangelists, etc., and they essentially mirrored each other. There were / are one or two minor groups or folks who have some disagreements with them but even they do not stray too far from the "accepted view". Since I had NO previous understanding of Daniel and certainly Revelation, I came in cold and read their thoughts, compared them to others - even those within this "majority of opinion" and realized just how many contradictions THEY had between them!  This then became an opportunity to ask why THEY had such disagreement among themselves and I had one advantage - I did not or have any reason to look to Revelation for the possible answers..... Why - EVERYONE INSTRUCTED ME THAT IF I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND REVELATION I SHOULD FIRST STUDY DANIEL.....and I did just that! Now I have found that everyone in the current majority relies on Revelation to understand Daniel.

So, if you are willing to take this approach, which is not unreasonable, we can try and identify each actor by reading the verses in Daniel alone.  Daniel speaks to 3 different periods - obviously the truly historical period from captivity to the Greek kingdom. Then it speaks to the coming Messiah / the 4th kingdom period and His Plan of Salvation (the time of Jesus beginning with pagan Rome and includes the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD), and then there is a 3rd period which is when the Word of God - His Gospel is to be spread to all the world - the Messiah had come, was crucified and rose from the dead. He sent His Holy Spirit to us who would be with us and never leave us. But it also contained ALL the events and actors that would soon come to power to corrupt this Word of God. This is the most important reading in Daniel - not concerned with another 100 or so wars or conflicts throughout the next 2,000 years -they will always take place - nothing knew to mankind and there is no real value for Daniel to write about them -whether it is a conflict some 200, 1000 or even 2,000 years after the crucifixion..... one was or conflict is no different than the other even if it is as horrible as the world wars in the 20th century.  The verses in Daniel that speak to the conflicts after His crucifixion focus on a spiritual warfare - His Word, His sacrifice, His Plan of Salvation to both Jew and Gentile against those "beast" and the "little horn" who are only interested in THEIR comfort, their power, their way of life, their plan or identification of success, their worldly views and practices, anything other than what He preached. This is the final battle, not a China, Russia, Islam, EU, etc., they have been around for thousands of years -just in a different name or nationality, etc. Daniel is ONLY A HISTORY BOOK FOR THE FIRST 5 OR SO CHAPTERS, THEN IT BEGINS TO MOVE IN THIS DIRECTION - FOCUSING ON HIS PLAN OF SALVATION NOT ANOTHER HISTORY LESSON THAT FOR THE MOST PART WE HAVE MATCHED OR PARTIALLY MATCHED TO OUR HISTORY BOOKS.

So, if you are interested in identifying these actors without Revelation .... fine, if not that is okay as well, Charlie

 

I agree with much of what you say in principal.

Charlie, I don't think there is any "formula" of what to study first when it comes to eschatology.

My You Tube video's are actually intended to be educational about common mistakes people make regarding the end times and especially the person who becomes the arch villain of the end times.

Having said that, the way the bible is structured - "information" is progressively released about that person as the bible progresses - through the books in the Tanach to the four gospel books, then through the epistles, then into Revelation.

Think of it as information we gain - and not as one book competing over another book for superiority.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by douggg

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

Charlie, I don't think there is any "formula" of what to study first when it comes to eschatology.

My You Tube video's are actually intended to be educational about common mistakes people make regarding the end times and especially the person who becomes the arch villain of the end times.

Having said that, the way the bible is structured - "information" is progressively released about that person as the bible progresses - through the books in the Tanach to the four gospel books, then through the epistles, then into Revelation.

Think of it as information we gain - and not as one book competing over another book for superiority.

 

 

 

 

 

Very well said and I agree! But we also should not ignore that there is information in Daniel that speaks to those living in different times. They would not need to rely or even have access to a book yet written. 

There would not be a reason for Paul to concern himself with the end times and Revelation (not yet written of course), but he would / should have been able to recognize pagan Rome as the 4th kingdom, the coming Messiah in Daniel 9:24 and so on... (but even someone as brilliant as Paul could not see His Messiah in the way that He arrived). 

I can assure you we would get a completely different understanding of Daniel if we ignored Revelation and all the already accepted interpretations of Daniel-even though there are more holes and discrepancies within their own interpretations between both books. 

But I do understand how difficult it is for any of us to let go of something we feel so strongly about... thanks, Charlie 

[douggg]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I can assure you we would get a completely different understanding of Daniel if we ignored Revelation and all the already accepted interpretations of Daniel-even though there are more holes and discrepancies within their own interpretations between both books. 

The Jewish people (Judaism) do exactly that - i.e. they consider the information in the Christian New Testament as fairy tales.

One of their main theologians, Rashi, has commentary in their bible verse by verse.   A person can access an English translation of the Tanach, with Rashi's commentary, at Chabad.org.

But does going by Daniel alone make the understanding of the contents accordingly - right?    That's the shortfall of taking that particular approach.     Different yes, but not right.

______________________________________________________________

Speaking of letting go, one of the biggest impediments I think in regarding eschatology is the understanding of the Antichrist.

The person is the Antichrist, instead of and against Jesus the true Christ, only for the time he is perceived to be the messiah by the Jews, and has been anointed the King of Israel.

Mark 15:31-32,  "Christ the King of Israel"

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by douggg