Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

 

I am not sure how these new interpretations have been received .... not too much in response. Perhaps it might be appropriate then to try and move forward with THIS APPROACH and ask for your opinions / thoughts.

Below is verse 11:6 and my interpretations (in red). This was presented a few pages ago......... 

 ⁶ And at the end of some years (this would represent the period beginning with the Hasmonean Dynasty and the coming of the Messiah – it is also the period of Daniel’s last week – the 70^th week) they shall join forces (Messiah will be anointed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70^th week and begin His mission – and the Word became flesh) ……..

 

Therefore, if interested, would anyone care to fill in these actors?

 

 for the daughter (XXXXXX) of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North (XXXXXXX) to make an agreement (XXXXXX); but she (XXXXXXX) shall not retain the power of her ^[a]authority, and neither he nor his ^[b]authority shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times. 

Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts and interpretations, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

On 2/3/2021 at 11:20 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

I am not sure how these new interpretations have been received .... not too much in response. Perhaps it might be appropriate then to try and move forward with THIS APPROACH and ask for your opinions / thoughts.

Below is verse 11:6 and my interpretations (in red). This was presented a few pages ago......... 

 ⁶ And at the end of some years (this would represent the period beginning with the Hasmonean Dynasty and the coming of the Messiah – it is also the period of Daniel’s last week – the 70^th week) they shall join forces (Messiah will be anointed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70^th week and begin His mission – and the Word became flesh) ……..

 

Therefore, if interested, would anyone care to fill in these actors?

 

 for the daughter (XXXXXX) of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North (XXXXXXX) to make an agreement (XXXXXX); but she (XXXXXXX) shall not retain the power of her ^[a]authority, and neither he nor his ^[b]authority shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times. 

Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts and interpretations, Charlie

 

Ok, I guess I will start first and await your comments:  The KOS is Israel as mentioned earlier so the "daughter" of the KOS must be XXXXXXXX - when the KOS and the Prince come together ??????   How about the "Church"?  The Jews would reject their Messiah and HIS Word and the MESSIAH will be spread unto the entire world - HIS CHURCH......

Ok, waiting on you folks, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I guess I will start first and await your comments:  The KOS is Israel as mentioned earlier so the "daughter" of the KOS must be XXXXXXXX - when the KOS and the Prince come together ??????   How about the "Church"?  The Jews would reject their Messiah and HIS Word and the MESSIAH will be spread unto the entire world - HIS CHURCH......

Ok, waiting on you folks, Charlie

 

Ok, still no responses?  Here is what I am going to do...... you folks have forced me to do a deep dive on why there has been ALMOST NO responses since my identifying the actors in the first 6 verses or so........... Although I am still not totally on board with this I will in fact agree to go and take a shower...... don't really think it is necessary before the end of the month but I can not come up with anything else that is causing this usually very vocal group to offer their thoughts........  This shouldn't take too long, see ya in a few, Dirty Charlie

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

There is nothing to discuss,  because you are not addressing my long ago question to you.   Who are the 4 Persian kings to arise? 

Dan 11:2 KJV And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

You are skipping these important players,  jumping over to "pagan Rome".

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

There is enough information online where folks have gone to great length to identify and argue the 4 Persian Kings... but it really doesn’t matter as they are within the 2nd kingdom of  Daniel. The Persians were conquered by Alexander- king of Greece... the 3rd kingdom. 

Charlie.... 

[Diaste]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I guess I will start first and await your comments:  The KOS is Israel as mentioned earlier so the "daughter" of the KOS must be XXXXXXXX - when the KOS and the Prince come together ??????   How about the "Church"?  The Jews would reject their Messiah and HIS Word and the MESSIAH will be spread unto the entire world - HIS CHURCH......

Ok, waiting on you folks, Charlie

 

Why doesn't this flow from this:

"3And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those." - Dan 11

And this:

"21And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power." - Dan 8

And then from known history where it's indisputable the Diadochi ruled the cardinal directions? 

We literally have Ptolemy in the south and Lysimachus in the north if Israel is the central point, or Babylon. Since Babylon is the capitol of Nebuchadnezzar, the Persian and Medes and Alexander I use Babylon as the reference. That makes it even more clear as to who the North and South rulers are. 

Israel would be west of this point and cannot be the KOTS. Is the reference point is Israel then she cannot be the KOTS either. 

 

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, SONshine said:

@Charlie744  Hi again.  Here’s my take on Daniel 11:31. 

Daniel 11:31 
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

I think we all know who this abomination that maketh desolate is.  It is the vile person, the abominable one himself, the desolator, the one who stands in the holy place claiming he is God.  Yeah, he is the one Christ warned us about in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when He referred us to the Book of Daniel for understanding.

Thank you very much again for your thoughts on Daniel 11..... There has been only a couple of responses so far regarding the first 6 verses but this is also a very complicated verse (for me) to interpret. Let me ask you if you might consider the "AoD" is the act of crucifying the Messiah - the most abominable / terrible / horrific act in man's history?  Did not His crucifixion (His sacrifice) end all animal sacrifices? Did it not cause the desolation of Israel, it's people and Jerusalem? Did not Jesus Himself declare, as The High Priest prior to His execution the Sanctuary / Temple was indeed unclean and "made His Father's House a den of inequity"?

I believe almost 100% of the interpretations, and of course those that lead up to this verse after 11:4 contend they speak of a secular power / ruler, AND in the time of AE and the Ptolemy's,  but for me, the only way chapter 11 works and is truly prophetic is if were to speak about the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation.  Which is the sole reason for my posts concerning Daniel 11 - they are NOT to be interpreted in a secular manner but to the coming Messiah, His crucifixion, the rejection by His people, the punishment of His people, the coming of the "little horn" who would claim to be god on earth, speak against God Himself, corrupt His Word and Plan of Salvation, the transition from pagan to papal Rome..... so on.   

Do you think (maybe) we might try to look for HIM in 11 and interpret  this chapter in a non-secular way?  Would like to hear your thought on this if you do not mind?

 

22 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Mark 13:14 
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

So he that "readeth the Book of Daniel” understands not only who the abomination is, but how it is he takes away the daily sacrifice in these last days.

Of course we know that the first time the daily sacrifice (the morning and evening oblation) was taken away was at the crucifixion, which was when Jesus Christ became our morning and evening oblation, our "daily sacrifice,” once and for all time.

Once again, (my opinion), I have a very real problem accepting that Mark would be referring to a "secular" event (which, if you interpret chapter 11 to include AE or the Ptolemy's and push much of 11 into the future with a anti-christ figure), rather than the Messiah ----- especially in the Gospels! Aslo once again, just my thoughts here!

 

22 minutes ago, SONshine said:

However when Satan, the false Messiah, appears, he takes away the real Christ (our daily sacrifice) from the minds of those who are deceived and places himself there, causing those Christians to become his, which is to become spiritually dead indeed.

And so it is easy to understand the great falling away at the false messiah's appearance, because in one day, those who claim to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ, because they are ignorant of God's Word (i.e.do not have the seal of God (His truth) in their foreheads) begin to worship Satan believing he is Jesus Christ.  I believe this is the great apostasy.

 

Thank you SONshine once again for your thought and response and hope to continue to hear back from you on Daniel 11 and other topics... Charlie

[WilliamL]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:57 PM, Charlie744 said:

 Beginning of Pagan Rome (11:5 – 6) (only identifying up to Actors #7)            

 

⁵ “Also the king of the South shall become strong, (Actor #1) as well as one of his princes;  (Actor #2) and he  (Actor #3) shall gain power over him;  (Actor 4) and have dominion. His (Actor 5) dominion shall be a great dominion. ⁶ And at the end of some years they shall join forces, (Actor #6) for the daughter of the king of the South (Actor #7)

These verses have nothing to do with Rome. The following is the standard historical view, this one taken from "The Book of Daniel  Commentary by A. R. FAUSSET." @: https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Dan/Dan_011.cfm?a=861001

  5. Here the prophet leaves Asia and Greece and takes up Egypt and Syria, these being in continual conflict under Alexander's successors, entailing misery on Judea, which lay between the two. ...
      king of. . . south--literally, "of midday": Egypt ( Dan 11:8, 42 ), PTOLEMY Soter, son of Lagus. He took the title "king," whereas Lagus was but "governor."
      one of his princes--Seleucus, at first a satrap of PTOLEMY Lagus, but from 312 B.C. king of the largest empire after that of Alexander (Syria, Babylon, Media, &c.), and called therefore Nicator, that is, "conqueror." Connect the words thus, "And one of his (PTOLEMY'S) princes, even he (Seleucus) shall be strong above him" (above PTOLEMY, his former master).

      6. in. . . end of years--when the predicted time shall be consummated ( Dan 11:13, Margin; Dan 8:17 12:13 ).
      king's daughter of the south--Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt. The latter, in order to end his war with Antiochus Theus, "king of the north" (literally, "midnight": the prophetical phrase for the region whence came affliction to Israel, Jer 1:13-15 Joe 2:20 ), that is, Syria, gave Berenice to Antiochus, who thereupon divorced his former wife, Laodice, and disinherited her son, Seleucus Callinicus. The designation, "king of the north" and "of the south," is given in relation to Judea, as the standpoint. Egypt is mentioned by name ( Dan 11:8, 42 ), though Syria is not; because the former was in Daniel's time a flourishing kingdom, whereas Syria was then a mere dependency of Assyria and Babylon: an undesigned proof of the genuineness of the Book of Daniel.
      agreement--literally, "rights," that is, to put things to rights between the belligerents.
      she shall not retain the power of the arm--She shall not be able to effect the purpose of the alliance, namely, that she should be the mainstay of peace. Ptolemy having died, Antiochus took back Laodice, who then poisoned him, and caused Berenice and her son to be put to death, and raised her own son, Seleucus Nicator, to the throne.
      neither shall he stand--The king of Egypt shall not gain his point of setting his line on the throne of Syria.
      his arm--that on which he relied. Berenice and her offspring.
      they that brought her--her attendants from Egypt.
      he that begat her--rather as Margin, "the child whom she brought forth" [EWALD]. If English Version (which MAURER approves) be retained, as Ptolemy died a natural death, "given up" is not in his case, as in Berenice's, to be understood of giving up to death, but in a general sense, of his plan proving abortive.
      he that strengthened her in these times--Antiochus Theus, who is to attach himself to her (having divorced Laodice) at the times predicted [GEJER].

Edited February 11, 2021 by WilliamL

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

These verses have nothing to do with Rome. The following is the standard historical view, this one taken from "The Book of Daniel  Commentary by A. R. FAUSSET." @: https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Dan/Dan_011.cfm?a=861001

  5. Here the prophet leaves Asia and Greece and takes up Egypt and Syria, these being in continual conflict under Alexander's successors, entailing misery on Judea, which lay between the two. ...
      king of. . . south--literally, "of midday": Egypt ( Dan 11:8, 42 ), PTOLEMY Soter, son of Lagus. He took the title "king," whereas Lagus was but "governor."
      one of his princes--Seleucus, at first a satrap of PTOLEMY Lagus, but from 312 B.C. king of the largest empire after that of Alexander (Syria, Babylon, Media, &c.), and called therefore Nicator, that is, "conqueror." Connect the words thus, "And one of his (PTOLEMY'S) princes, even he (Seleucus) shall be strong above him" (above PTOLEMY, his former master).

      6. in. . . end of years--when the predicted time shall be consummated ( Dan 11:13, Margin; Dan 8:17 12:13 ).
      king's daughter of the south--Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt. The latter, in order to end his war with Antiochus Theus, "king of the north" (literally, "midnight": the prophetical phrase for the region whence came affliction to Israel, Jer 1:13-15 Joe 2:20 ), that is, Syria, gave Berenice to Antiochus, who thereupon divorced his former wife, Laodice, and disinherited her son, Seleucus Callinicus. The designation, "king of the north" and "of the south," is given in relation to Judea, as the standpoint. Egypt is mentioned by name ( Dan 11:8, 42 ), though Syria is not; because the former was in Daniel's time a flourishing kingdom, whereas Syria was then a mere dependency of Assyria and Babylon: an undesigned proof of the genuineness of the Book of Daniel.
      agreement--literally, "rights," that is, to put things to rights between the belligerents.
      she shall not retain the power of the arm--She shall not be able to effect the purpose of the alliance, namely, that she should be the mainstay of peace. Ptolemy having died, Antiochus took back Laodice, who then poisoned him, and caused Berenice and her son to be put to death, and raised her own son, Seleucus Nicator, to the throne.
      neither shall he stand--The king of Egypt shall not gain his point of setting his line on the throne of Syria.
      his arm--that on which he relied. Berenice and her offspring.
      they that brought her--her attendants from Egypt.
      he that begat her--rather as Margin, "the child whom she brought forth" [EWALD]. If English Version (which MAURER approves) be retained, as Ptolemy died a natural death, "given up" is not in his case, as in Berenice's, to be understood of giving up to death, but in a general sense, of his plan proving abortive.
      he that strengthened her in these times--Antiochus Theus, who is to attach himself to her (having divorced Laodice) at the times predicted [GEJER].

Thank you William! I have read this and many other very similar secular historical interpretations that are identified with these verses.... but as I mentioned a few times, I really don’t believe God had Daniel give us some history lesson on some folks living post 3rd kingdom/pre-4th kingdom and have NOTHING to offer to Daniel’s chapter 2 metal man image and their characteristics, or to His chapter 7 symbols of a great beast, 10 horns, a little horn and THEIR purpose and prophetic meaning that SHOULD and MUST point us to the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation - this is why I created this topic / post. I read all of this historical “matching”or their attempt to identify all of 11’s verses but they fall so short, lose their integrity as they continue on down through Daniel and most important, they have nothing to do with 2, 7 and 8. 

God has given us 3 separate images/symbols and their characteristics along with progression, patterns, comparisons and differences WITHIN each kingdom (as they move from east to west-(2 to 7 to 8), and also THROUGH the movement of each kingdom (a north to south - 1st to the 4th kingdom). There are so many “things” to follow and compare and learn about as we read from 2 to 7 to 8! These are not only “things” to identify and interpret but they are also our RULES and CONSTRAINTS to follow so WE can stay on the PROTHETIC path God gave to Daniel which would be used to see HIM clearly and not some minor actors and events that SEEM to match with OUR history books. 

Once again, I read all these scholarly interpretations, and there is no shortage of those talented folks that have also signed their name on the line (John Hancock like), to this “secular” interpretation but none of it belongs in our understanding and interpretations of Daniel! The most important kingdom in Daniel is the 4th where EVERYTHING WILL TAKE PLACE- EVERYTHING! It will or MUST speak to the Messiah, the Jews, their rejection, their desolation, the coming church, the little horn .... and all the “things” THIS little horn will do over the next 2,000 years until HIS second coming! 

Daniel 11 and 12 ARE the only two chapters remaining in Daniel where all of this MUST be given to us, AND IT CERTAINLY DOES, but we have to leave these folks in our history books where they belong and try and see OUR Messiah within the 4th kingdom and those events and actors that meet or keep with HIS prophetic method found in 2, 7 and 8 - not just a stand alone attempt at matching some actors to a time or period .... 

Again, this is my interpretations of 11- because these secular interpretations did not work at all for me when I tried to understand 11. 

I literally read 11 some 100 times verse by verse and comparing them to these scholarly interpretations- the more I tried to see their interpretations the more I came away feeling it was all wrong (too many holes within their own timelines, forced “matching” of verse to actors, incomplete “matching” where historical events had no relationship with verse, verses completely unaddressed since they could not be “matched” to these same actors or events, no integrity of timeline, no integrity of storyline or actors.... God is NOT a confusing or confused God. He has given us the first 3 kingdoms with great detail in 3 different ways and of course with perfect accuracy. He has been COMPLETELY consistent with those 3 kingdoms from 2 to 7 to 8.... why would He stop His prophetic message and METHOD with the 4th kingdom? He would not!

It took me 7 months to begin to see His METHOD or pattern WITHIN chapter 11... it required me to completely eliminate EVERYTHING I had just read about all of the interpretations (that so many contend are so, so accurate to the times of AE, the Ptolemy’s, Berenice, Egypt, Syria, etc.). It was so difficult for me to think I should ignore all the work and effort of these truly scholarly people who had (supposedly) made chapter 11 so easy to understand- I didn’t have to unpack or break down 11 as I had to do for the earlier chapters- it was all done in meticulous detail - but it wasn’t!! 

Seven months after I started I threw their interpretations away and simply asked God to show me what He wants us to see in 11.... most difficult assignment or task I have EVER had on my life!!!!!

But He dragged me along kicking and screaming all the way.... so complicated and confusing UNTIL it was not. 

So, I wanted to post this topic (just 11) and take a few verses at a time and BEGIN to go down this path or method or “approach” and get everyone ‘s thoughts and opinions... YOUR response is exactly what I expected since it reflects almost all of the accepted interpretations of 11. But I am ASKING for you folks to possibly consider a different “approach” in interpreting 11- away from the secular and in keeping with 2,7&8 AND a Messianic interpretation. 

Charlie 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, SONshine said:

Hey there... Once again, the angel was showing Daniel what would befall us in the end time, right before the four winds are let go.  Daniel is a prophetic book.  It cannot be emphasized enough that the image which Nebuchadnezzar saw was for these latter days.  When Jesus spoke about the “abomination of desolation,” He was speaking in the context of a discussion about the “end of the age” 

Matthew 24:3,

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

 

First, I want to apologize for my stubbornness in not agreeing with the above but I do agree with you that your views are in the majority- mine- I can assure you I am alone with them!

If you do not mind I would like to try and discuss with you ONE interpretation at a time... your response addressed many issues and included verses in the NT as well.

So, if I may... you started with Nebuchadnezzar which is perfect!

He had the vision of the metal man image- for me, they represent the 4 kingdoms where Babylon is the 1st and the head of this image. 

Do you agree with that?

Then the 2nd kingdom is the chest and arms which represent the kingdom of the Medes-Persians. 

Do you agree with that?

The 3rd kingdom conquered the Medes-Persians and is identified as Greece (Alexander).

Do you agree with that?

 I will await your response but I will ASSUME you have agreed with those 3 above... if not, we will have to discuss further.

But here is where the conflicts and disagreements begin- the 4th kingdom. The very first thing to come to terms are for understanding 11 is just who is this 4th kingdom.... 

I have given my thoughts on why and who this represents but STAYING WITHIN DANIEL, what is telling you who and why is this 4th kingdom?

I will stop here and await your response, thank you again for your patience, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Daniel 8:13

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 9:27

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

SONshine, these are ALL wonderful verses and require our understanding but, if you do not mind I just responded to your earlier post and would like to take this discussion one issue or verse or interpretation at a time and THEN we will learn where and why we depart in our thoughts on 11...  Charlie