Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

Please note below the first 6 verses of Daniel 11 (verse 6 is partial). I believe it is very sage to say that at least 90% or so of those interested in Daniel - theologians, scholars (at least during the past few hundred years until now), almost all of today's evangelists (TV or print), religious professors / bible colleges, etc., and most importantly, just about everyone within this forum believe that chapter 11 is dominated by post Greek kingdom (Alexander) actors and events, at least up to the first 28 or so verses. 

I am very interested in determining the message behind chapter 11 and I believe it has been grossly misinterpreted; and this is mostly accomplished by having identified the "actors and events" in a worldly or physical manner as opposed to viewing or interpreting them in a more "spiritual" manner - where they are meant to reveal events that will take place AFTER AND WITHIN the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and NOT between the 3rd and 4th kingdom which I believe may be called the "intertestamental period).

I am sure there is enough interest and knowledge within this group where we will receive some tremendous thoughts and opinions. So, there are 11 ITEMS TO ADDRESS:

We should confirm or address if these verses fall within their proper kingdom, or not,

Then, or at the same time if you prefer, we should identify EACH one of the ACTORS #1 TO #7,

 

Medes and Persian Kingdom (11:1 – 2)

11 “Also in the first year of Darius the Mede, I, even I, stood up to confirm and strengthen him.)   ² And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece

 Alexander and the Greece Kingdom (11:3)                                         

. ³ Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

Greece is broken into 4 territories to be occupied by his generals (11:4)                                      

 ⁴ And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.

 Beginning of Pagan Rome (11:5 – 6) (only identifying up to Actors #7)            

⁵ “Also the king of the South shall become strong, (Actor #1) as well as one of his princes;  (Actor #2) and he  (Actor #3) shall gain power over him;  (Actor 4) and have dominion. His (Actor 5) dominion shall be a great dominion. ⁶ And at the end of some years they shall join forces, (Actor #6) for the daughter of the king of the South (Actor #7)

 

It might be more production or effective if we are able to take each ACTOR at a time so we can all learn and understand what each of us sees and thinks.... then move to the next.

So, it is NOW SABBATH, and this just might be an appropriate topic for discussion! Thanks, Charlie

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Hi, Charlie...  

The "king of the south" (actor #1) is Nassar of Egypt.  Am I correct? 

Well, it is ALWAYS good to hear from you!

First, if you do not mind, can you tell me if you agree / disagree / want to change any of the identities of the 4 kingdoms?

Secondly, why do you think Nassar is Actor #1?  Your saying these verses in early 11 include no activity until the 20th century?

Thank you, this is a nice start, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

11 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Charlie, my goodness!  I really need to go back and re-study all this.  Great thread! 

No, that’s not fair! Despite so many that have readily expressed their opinion on this topic with some very strong voice, you are the only one who has responded! 

And your opinion is always enjoyable to read... 

This was / is my objective here- to learn what and why folks within this forum think about 11– once again, I would bet that 90% believe 11 speaks of AE or Ptolemy or the conflicts among them in the pre-pagan Rome period.

Come on you guys... let’s discuss this!!! Charlie 

[Diaste]

Good morning.

It's early so forgive the errors...only my first cup of black gold.

So my first thought is how did we go from the below;

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Greece is broken into 4 territories to be occupied by his generals (11:4)                                      

 ⁴ And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.

To this?

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 Beginning of Pagan Rome (11:5 – 6) (only identifying up to Actors #7)            

If Alexander's kingdom was divided up in the cardinal directions, then text immediately says:

"The king of the South will grow strong, but one of his commanders will grow even stronger and will rule his own kingdom with great authority.", the only thing we know is the king of the south must be one of the 'four winds' and one of the generals of Alexander. So we have not Ptolemy, but Egypt. Egypt exists today, Ptolemy does not. It's seem obvious to me the KOTS is Egypt no matter who is in charge. The text states, "even for others besides these."

In my mind the 'others beside these' are the kings and rulers that would arise in the kingdoms of the four winds over time. I just don't see Rome. 

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

⁵ “Also the king of the South shall become strong, (Actor #1) as well as one of his princes;  (Actor #2) and he  (Actor #3) shall gain power over him;  (Actor 4) and have dominion. His (Actor 5) dominion shall be a great dominion. 

About the above, another rendering of the text is, "The king of the South will grow strong, but one of his commanders will grow even stronger and will rule his own kingdom with great authority."  This would mean actors 1-5 are condensed into 2; the KOTS and another of Alexander's princes.(the KOTN as is shown in verse 6) I don't see this referring to a 'prince' of the KOTS, but one of Alexander's commanders. I think this is proven through the histories. Turkey grew quite strong over time, far stronger than Egypt.

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

⁶ And at the end of some years they shall join forces, (Actor #6) for the daughter of the king of the South (Actor #7)

"will go to the king of the North to seal the agreement." Here we have two of the kingdoms of the winds joining forces; Egypt and whatever one decides is the northern kingdom. Today the northern kingdom is Turkey as it's what became of Asia Minor and the land of Antigonus. Again I think the actors are but two in verses 5 and 6.

In my mind the text is referring to the regions over which the Diadochi ruled between themselves; similar regions which were ruled successively by Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, and not the kings past or present. As we go along in Dan 11 we see the story expand over time right past Antiochus [v.29-31] to the willful king of v. 36; the same as described in 2 Thess 2 and elsewhere:

Dan 11:36

"Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods."

2 Thess 2

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

That's what I see. I just don't think it's that complicated.

[DeighAnn]

As I believe right now (always open to new revelations)  Babel where God confused the language.  

The kingdoms are important because they are the ones Satan works through.  None of them have God as their God so they are all idolatrous kingdoms worshipping other gods and also another place for the mystery of iniquity to work.  For the beast to rise out of the sea, it is going to have to have had been working for many years towards the one world rule.  Those 10 kingdoms will have to have attained control of the monies, intelligence, and all the rest.....

The first one Babylon, is the mother of all the 'harlots' to follow
2nd, 3rd, 4th, you know.  
The 5th kingdom that reigns until Satan comes for the one world system, DENIES our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Emmanuel.  
That would be the Muslims who have retained it since 630 something.

So the 6th kingdom will be Satans (perfect as his number is 666) 


What is being revealed is what comes at judgment, So Christ has returned
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast was, (6th)  
is not (bound 1000 years) (7th) Lords Day (another perfect number)
and shall ascend out of the pit (for a short season) (8th) Gog and Ma Gog or Armageddon (I feel like Paul, if I think I get it right I am wrong and If I think I got it wrong I am right, so now I just let others look it up)
and go into perdition.  

 

[DeighAnn]

 

 

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

As I believe right now (always open to new revelations)  Babel where God confused the language.  

The kingdoms are important because they are the ones Satan works through.  None of them have God as their God so they are all idolatrous kingdoms worshipping other gods and also another place for the mystery of iniquity to work.  For the beast to rise out of the sea, it is going to have to have had been working for many years towards the one world rule.  Those 10 kingdoms will have to have attained control of the monies, intelligence, and all the rest.....

The first one Babylon, is the mother of all the 'harlots' to follow
2nd, 3rd, 4th, you know.  
The 5th kingdom that reigns until Satan comes for the one world system, DENIES our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Emmanuel.  
That would be the Muslims who have retained it since 630 something.

So the 6th kingdom will be Satans (perfect as his number is 666) 


What is being revealed is what comes at judgment, So Christ has returned
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast was, (6th)  
is not (bound 1000 years) (7th) Lords Day (another perfect number)
and shall ascend out of the pit (for a short season) (8th) Gog and Ma Gog or Armageddon (I feel like Paul, if I think I get it right I am wrong and If I think I got it wrong I am right, so now I just let others look it up)
and go into perdition.  

 

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

The 5th kingdom that reigns until Satan comes for the one world system, DENIES our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Emmanuel.  
That would be the Muslims who have retained it since 630 something.

 

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The beast was, (6th)  Satan, (his angels  will reign for an hour with the beast).  "with the seed of men" clarifying more than anything for me this is the order.   

 

Just as Satan has been setting up for the battle, SO HAS GOD.   We call them Christians, the church, the body of Christ.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Good morning.

It's early so forgive the errors...only my first cup of black gold.

So my first thought is how did we go from the below;

To this?

If Alexander's kingdom was divided up in the cardinal directions, then text immediately says:

"The king of the South will grow strong, but one of his commanders will grow even stronger and will rule his own kingdom with great authority.", the only thing we know is the king of the south must be one of the 'four winds' and one of the generals of Alexander. So we have not Ptolemy, but Egypt. Egypt exists today, Ptolemy does not. It's seem obvious to me the KOTS is Egypt no matter who is in charge. The text states, "even for others besides these."

In my mind the 'others beside these' are the kings and rulers that would arise in the kingdoms of the four winds over time. I just don't see Rome. 

First, thank you for taking the time, even before you cup of gold to respond. I have read many of your posts in other topics and it is clear you enjoy His Word and have a strong opinion of things....

I believe it is safe to say that you have expressed an opinion that is shared by so many where they / you have matched the actors and events with a post Alexander / pre=pagan Rome timeline. I have read more than a few comments on 11 where many have stated just how "exact" or certainly seemingly mirroring the actual events of that period - as though God had Daniel write these verses in such detail that they could not be speaking of anyone else but an AE or the Ptolemies, etc.  After I finished the first 10 chapters of Daniel and began 11, these comments put a smile on my face since I had so much difficulty unpacking 10.... so now I could relax some and coast along with 11. Unfortunately, the "matching" of those actors and events failed to keep with the actual events in our history books. I found this confusing when there was a significant disconnect between actual v verses and in more than a few occasions, a complete void in their willingness or ability to even provide a comment on the latter verses. Then, I would see these same scholars regain their voice in verses beyond the ones that could not be addressed or tied to our history books. Some would even jump or leap many verses forward to Daniel 11:30 and beyond - these, apparently were clear to them and they could find history to attach or explain them to..... 

This became a big problem for me....for at least few reasons: if many scholars were correct in identifying / matching the early verses of 11 to our history books, as though we might be able to overlap the two and see one writing, why shouldn't this continue on throughout the chapter? Why were there so many verses that were not or could not be interpreted and consistent with the previous verses that spoke so clearly? Another open question for me would focus on the 4 kingdoms identified in Daniel 2,7 & 8.  God had Daniel provide us with a significant amount of information and specific characteristics for each of the 4 kingdoms. If the first 3 kingdoms hit their mark in the center, and they certainly did, why are we "seemingly" departing from His "model"  - In His metal man image we learn of the 4 kingdoms that will come  - one right after the other. By their metals we learn how they conquer and treat their conquered. And there is much more for us to extract from this metal man image to help us with their identification and practices. Then we move on to Daniel 7 where we are now presented with symbols of the 4 kingdoms quite different than the metal man. Daniel now gives us specific animals known to man (except the 4th) that provide another view of these 4 kingdoms. We now can really start to see more sides of this kingdom puzzle  - all to enhance and confirm just who are these 4 kingdoms. Daniel 7 seems to focus primarily on the "kingdom" and their characteristics. For me, 7 tells me to focus on the progression of the powers / kingdoms that follow one another - this should keep us within the lines, if you will, so as we move forward in Daniel's prophecies, we now have two very strong images / symbols of the 4 "kingdoms" - these will keep us within His prophetic message and not deviate outside of these rules. So I believe we now have two chapters reinforcing our view and keeping our focus on just what we should continue to see regarding the succession of the 4 kingdoms. So far, I don't see any contradiction between those kingdoms that will arise from chapter 2 to chapter 7. They will be the same kingdoms. 

Now, we move on to chapter 8 where Daniel nows gives us another set of animals symbolizing these 4 powers, but here Daniel focuses not on the "kingdoms" but on the "kings" who will rule those 4 kingdoms. For me, this is yet another definite and powerful way of identifying these 4 kingdoms. Theoretically, we should be able to match these kings to the 4 kingdoms and hopefully, put to rest just who these 4 kingdoms are. I don't believe anyone disagrees with the first 3 kingdoms OR the kings that ruled over them. So, we have characteristics and practices of the first 3 kingdoms that are in agreement from chapters 2,7 & 8. We should have the same success with the 4th kingdom. 

For me, chapter 2 gives us a very good description of pagan Rome... their practices, methods and shear terror they would spread around  the world. And we know that pagan Rome came after Greece.... so at this time, there really should not be any doubt. If we were to stop here at the end of chapter 2, I would expect everyone to agree that it is pagan Rome. And it that is true, then we can not or should not see any contradiction in either 7 or 8.  Chapter 7 symbolizes the 4th kingdom as a "beast" that can not be compared to any known animal on earth... it is simply ferocious and without heart - it is a true destroyer of things. But it also reveals it has ten horns that come out from within it - this, for me, is certainly the same symbol as the 10 toes in chapter 2 - so we still have consistency in how this 4th kingdom treats any other nation and has these 10 symbols tied to it..... Chapter 7 also reveals another little horn that will arise out of this "beast". We do not yet know just who this "king or power/ruler" is since it is then still in the future but like the other 3 kingdoms in chapter 7, they all have a ruler mentioned within each kingdom. Chapter 8 now reveals to us the 3 remaining kingdoms (the kingdom and the king of the 1st kingdom has come and gone). Now Daniel focuses on the "king" in the remaining 3 kingdoms. It is clear in 8 the 2nd and 3rd kings can be identified as Darius of the Medes- Persians and of course Alexander of Greece. But Daniel tells us the king or ruler of this 4th kingdom is this "little horn" that must come out of the 4th kingdom which also must be in agreement with chapter 2 and 7.... for me this was identified as pagan Rome. Nowhere in chapters 2, 7 or 8 do we find any prophecies, kingdoms or kings outside of or in between these 4 identified kingdoms..... there is no space,  if you will between each of the metal sections, or between any of the animals mentioned - there is a first, second, third and forth kingdom, not a kingdom in between any one of those. 

The third reason we might consider why we should move on from Greece directly to pagan Rome has to do with the (for me) the primary purpose for the book of Daniel. It is NOT to serve as a history book but it is one of HIS most important and prophetic books in the Bible - and the one which will prophecize  on the coming of the Messiah.... that is critical.... in the first 3 kingdoms, Daniel is revealing to us those powers, kingdoms and rulers that have / will come on earth and demonstrate how we (man) treats fellow man WITHOUT the presence of God. To be candid, God could have Daniel write in just about any and all kingdoms, powers and rulers, regardless of when they would appear on earth (10th century, 18th century, etc.,) and it would be just as accurate a representation of mankind as those found in Daniel. Just as the Jews were sent to the Gentiles to introduce the One True God, Daniel was sent (although he was forced to Babylon) to the then Gentile power / kingdom to introduce the One True God to them.. God is providing us with a high level summary of mankind - without God and with God.. But whether the Jews failed to open Him up to the Gentiles or the Gentiles refused to accept Him (both in the story of Daniel and the story for the past 2,000 years), God would find it necessary to come down from Heaven and reveal Himself and His Plan of Salvation. This is the most important message within Daniel and why the 4th kingdom must be pagan Rome. We are attempting to match those verses / chapters to our history books when the real actors / events that will / has occurred are speaking about our Messiah.... but we have not be able or willing to match those verses or chapters to HIm - to His first coming within this 4th kingdom.....So at what point in Daniel do we or should we see the prophetic messages and revealing of the coming Messiah - where is His Plan of Salvation revealed? If most of 11, perhaps the first 29 verses or so are speaking of some in-between character like AE or a Ptolemy, which has absolutely no place or mention in the identification of the kings or kingdoms or characteristics in 2,7, or 8, why would we think we should give them so much "ink" in HIS extremely valuable prophetic book of Daniel...

These are the reasons why I started to move away from the "accepted" interpretation of chapter 11 and also other very important verses in other chapters of Daniel that are tied / connected with this view. And with this thinking, it will require a very different approach - not a purely historical exercise but one that will have to include the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation... which will prove just how unbelievably complicated and difficult 11 is.  

This rather long  winded response to your simple question (not simple minded by no means, but just a simple but relevant question) is the result of some 7 -8 months to put together - I had to read everyone's thoughts and opinions, try and use their "model" over and over again to fill in the blanks (where I saw inconsistency or a complete lack of response on their part), then try another approach... it was the most difficult task I have ever been through). More than once I decided this is just too much for me and I could not agree with the "accepted interpretations" and I was completely unable to offer an alternative. The ONLY light given to me was the same light that was available to me during my understandings / interpretations of the first 10 chapters of Daniel - when I tried to view many verses in a secular manner (the very difficult ones not like the lion's den or the furnace scene) I came up blank. When I tried to interpret them in a "spiritual" manner - where the underlying message speaks somehow to the Messiah then thinks opened up.... only when I remembered this approach and lost the habit of looking at things from a secular view did 11 open up its message. 
 

 

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

About the above, another rendering of the text is, "The king of the South will grow strong, but one of his commanders will grow even stronger and will rule his own kingdom with great authority."  This would mean actors 1-5 are condensed into 2; the KOTS and another of Alexander's princes.(the KOTN as is shown in verse 6) I don't see this referring to a 'prince' of the KOTS, but one of Alexander's commanders. I think this is proven through the histories. Turkey grew quite strong over time, far stronger than Egypt.

Well, you jumped ahead a little bit but I can understand why you would do so... it is clear you are well versed on the book of Daniel and 11 specifically, so it is most likely quite easy for you to see these verses as being all connected and consistent with each other..... But before we get to the KOS, I hope you might agree that the first 4 verses in 11 will drive most of the verses..... In Daniel 1 -4 we see a quick summary of the 2nd and 3rd kingdom where Alexander is "broken" and his kingdom is dispersed among his 4 generals in 4 separate "territories"..... this is important because it does not or can not use the word "kingdom or kingdoms". Again, to be consistent with 2, 7 & 8,  the summary of the first 3 kingdoms in Daniel 11: 1 -4 are confirmed... and the 4th kingdom and its king must be in keeping with those same chapters --- there is no mention of any kingdom or king or activity, etc. in between the 3rd and 4th kingdom....

As you know, MOST folks, including noted scholars contend this speaks quite clearly to the post Alexander / pre-pagan Rome activity. And one general of the southern territory was stronger than the others and was clearly more successful. However, he and the other 3 generals and their conflicts were never a "kingdom" or "a king" that would meet the any of the characteristics of the 4th kingdom..... AE was a power and he did mistreat the Jews and he was destructive, but he was a minor actor ... just a thug. It would have been very easy for God to have Daniel continue on in 11 and write about a truly great king like Alexander. He could have gone on for many chapters revealing his genius and conquering ways. But Daniel didn't even devoit much "ink" to this genius of a king in his discussion of the 3rd kingdom..... certainly AE or Ptolemy or any other generals coming into the power vacuum post Alexander would do the things they in fact did, but none of them would reach to the level of a king and his kingdom..... the timing is right after Alexander's 3rd kingdom but WE elevate these relatively minor actors to the 4th kingdom.

So, if we are to follow the "model" found in 2.7 & 8, and not get distracted by those interested in filling in the power vacuum left by Alexander, we might look for a true power - a monster - a beast that will not be like any other on earth. That is who we need to identify and the 4 generals or even the most powerful and successful of the 4 could not be considered to meet that definition. Out of this "beast" came the 10 horns - these are not 10 sub kings or kingdoms from Greece or surrounding Greece but they are 10 powers that were yet to be identified in the metal man image. The 4th kingdom is that kingdom that will last until the second coming of our Lord... it will not have the same name, but it will possess all the same characteristics of pagan Rome.... it is a composite of all the kingdoms of the first 3 kingdoms and also all the kingdoms that will arise in whatever century and part of the world - it is just a"beast" that has all the evils of man regardless of color, religion, ethnicity, etc. But at the beginning of this "beast" we will find a few prophetic happenings: The coming of the Messiah, the spreading of His Word and His Plan of Salvation and then the rising of this "little  horn" - also within this 4th kingdom ... this is the message within the 4th kingdom and found in 11..... if we look for the Messiah, the beast (pagan Rome), the little horn (papacy) will can match these verses to HIM ---not some character like AE... this is the most difficult task.....

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

"will go to the king of the North to seal the agreement." Here we have two of the kingdoms of the winds joining forces; Egypt and whatever one decides is the northern kingdom. Today the northern kingdom is Turkey as it's what became of Asia Minor and the land of Antigonus. Again I think the actors are but two in verses 5 and 6.

In my mind the text is referring to the regions over which the Diadochi ruled between themselves; similar regions which were ruled successively by Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, and not the kings past or present. As we go along in Dan 11 we see the story expand over time right past Antiochus [v.29-31] to the willful king of v. 36; the same as described in 2 Thess 2 and elsewhere:

Dan 11:36

"Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods."

2 Thess 2

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

That's what I see. I just don't think it's that complicated.

Once again we might be getting a little ahead of this..... but your are right to bring the KON along with the KOS for accomplishing consistency and continuity in our interpretations of at least the first 29 verses of 11.... but I hope we can wait some ...if the 4th kingdom is not properly identified, all following interpretations of Daniel (to 29) will/ would have to be in agreement with the identity of this kingdom.

Well, I greatly appreciate your comments and I am quite sure that many will find them interesting and they will want to offer their thoughts as well... thank you, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

9 hours ago, SONshine said:

Okay, okay, Charlie

My understanding, and I’m pretty sure I have very little, is that after the Babylonian empire, there was the Medo-Persian empire, the Grecian empire under Alexander the Great, and the Roman Empire.  I understand that the king of the south historically was the Ptolemaic Empire or Egypt while the king of the north was the Seleucid Empire, which today is basically the location of Iran and Iraq.  

....but I think we need to keep in mind that the angel Gabriel is ultimately showing Daniel what would befall us in the end time, the time just before the four winds are let go; in other words, the final generation.  Nebuchadnezzar’s dream was prophetic, concerning these latter days, the fig tree generation.

SONshine, thank you again for responding... I was hoping you would get back quickly and contribute to this topic! Okay, as you are aware, most folks contend that pagan Rome is NOT the 4th kingdom and I just bent Diaste's ear with a rather long and most likely very boring response on this.....but you seem to accept pagan Rome as the 4th kingdom..... so do I but we have a very long hill to climb!

However, you move to 11:5 and identify the KOS as being associated with the Ptolemies or Egypt and then later on the KON as the Seleucid Empire (today's Iran or Iraq).  I don't want to add insult to injury in asking you to please read my recent response to Diaste and then now having to repeat most of it again to you.... that would be cruel and unusual punishment and I think I could get jail time for requiring that....

Anyway, I believe 11:5 is the beginning of revealing the events and actors within the 4th kingdom.... I have tried a gazillion times to follow those scholars (everyone) interpretation this is speaking of the post Alexander / pre-pagan Rome period... but if it was so, it would have to continue and be consistent in its thoughts and message at least for the next 24 verses - and it simply doesn't and no one has been able to complete this....... so, I started looking at this as if it began with the 4th kingdom AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, it is speaking of the Messiah and His Plan that begins within the 4th kingdom.... and it does (for me). And that is why we are here so I and we and everyone might learn what we think 11 is telling us! 

I certainly agree with you - Daniel 11 does tell us what will take place at the end times, but that happens in the last quarter of 11. Daniel is telling us those things  that will take place from the coming of the Messiah to His second coming.... If we look back to the information in 2, 7 & 8, I think it is safe to say there are some very important characters to identify - that arise within this 4th kingdom...... So, if the 4th kingdom is this "beast" (and for me it is), then 11 must be telling us those things after Alexander's 3rd kingdom.... there  is no mention or purpose of those conflicts or minor rulers / kings that fall between the last two kingdoms.

Please keep responding with your questions and thoughts -I can assure you that no one but God has the answers to 11 but everyone should continue to offer their educated thoughts and opinions.... thanks, Charlie

 

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I'm not trying to be disagreeable,  but it doesn't say that the beast was the 6th king.   It says that he was and is not.   This is a hard paradigm to solve.   Rome,  still "was" in John's day.   I think we have to be consistent in the "perspective of time " that John is speaking to us,  via the angel.  I think we all struggle with this issue.   When John talks about the "beast that was and is not", that "time perspective" has to be consistent with,  "one IS".   This beast that now is alluded to as being "WAS and now IS NOT",  cannot be the one who now IS,  the 6th king.   You can't be a "WAS (is not) " and be an "IS" in the same time perspective.   Do you see what I'm saying?   That is why I have now come to the view *after many failed ideas " the beast that WAS,  is best portrayed by the Greek kingdom,  of the great image...aka the brass kingdom that ruled the "whole world", 

Dan 2:39 KJV And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Rome never ruled the vast empire created by Alexander.   But I would call Rome the 6th head of the beast,  portrayed by the great image of Daniel 2.

1st head,  Babylon. 

2nd head,  Media- Persia. 

3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th heads are the 4 divisions of the Greek empire.   With Rome being the 6th head,  ala, the King of the north. 

7th head,  The 10 horns. 

The beast that was and is not will rise again when 10 horns give "their kingdom" unto the beast.  The two legs of the great image were Rome and Egypt.   Daniel 11:1-6 is about the attempt by Julius Caesar and Cleopatra,  to unite the kingdoms of the north and south... they had a Son named Caesarian.   One of her descendents,  "a branch out of her roots" shall rise again as the king of the South.   Daniel 11 is all about how these two kingdoms,  North and South,  will unite to resurrect the beast,  Alexander's Greece.   In Daniel 11:2, it says that this "fourth king" shall be far richer than the previous 3 and he shall stir up all  against the kingdom of Greece. 

Dan 11:2 KJV And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

WE ARE  LIVING IN THE 5TH 

I think a problem might be because of taking the 'names and titles' and trying to affix a time to them.  When we hear "the beast that ascends out of the pit"  DOESN'T mean it is setting a time, it is just naming a who.  I THINK, AND IDK


I am not sure where we are not connecting, before understanding kings of north and south and all the rest, the foundation must be sure.  

So the best foundation laid is by Gods own words... 

 This is a place I found that unless I am reading in error IF NOT it tells us exactly who what when and where. 
 
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Angel is going to show the JUDGEMENT,  

THIS SETS THE TIME  (Please know I am not yelling, it is how my brain connects so I don't get lost)  (unless the 90% post is in caps, then, I am yelling)
 

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

This is Gods Word. 

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.  
 

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,

was meaning all the  WAY UP UNTIL Judgment came

2  Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

THAT pretty much ends that Satanic kingdom 

AND with that SATAN HAS BECOME 

NOT ONLY A "WAS", BUT ALSO AN "IS NOT"

THAT FAST

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,


AND it also fits 
 WILL BE
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

When he shall
and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,

lose the war

and go into perdition:


and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


 

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Thank you for your comments.   I agree that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit at the end of the 1000 years.   I hadn't thought of it that way.   But, this glance into the future when the beast  "Satan?" is cast into the pit,  creates a problem with the "time perspective"that John is using, in the future when he is judged and cast into the pit.  How would you then reconcile John saying that 5 kings are fallen (at THAT time), one IS, and after that will come the 7th one for a "short space" and then (after that) there will be the 8th.   How do you see that without changing the time perspective of this judgment of Satan?   (I'm picking your brain).

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I see your answer now. 

WE ARE  LIVING IN THE 5TH 
That changes to a different perspective of when Satan is judged and cast into the pit.

So what am I supposed to be doing?  I'm  little lost as to the question.  What chapter and verse?