Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time.

No, I don'y agree that Rome is the final Beast. I think a MAN (Anti-Christ) is the final Beast and he just so happens to arise out of TWO BEASTS at once. He is born in Greece via Dan. 8:9, and arises to power via Europe sans Dan. 7:8-9. There is a 5th Beast, he is a MAN, we can see that in Daniel 7:11, it says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and he is cast into HELLFIRE. Not Beast Kingdom can be cast into hell, the LAST or 5th Beast is a MAN this is why he has the 666 number, 777 is God and 666 represents man. We don't see the first two heads of Rev. in Daniel either, but this Kingdom stretches from Egypt/Assyria to the Four Beasts pre the cross and one during the cross, then the Rome Beast as a Mortal Wound.......It goes away......then this MAN revives the east by conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region once again. So, on a map it looks identical to where it left off, but its not the same Beast whatsoever, its nigh 2000 years later, this is ONE MAN with all power who seeks to destroy all the Jews and who hates God. 

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS).

And I do not see it as Pagan Rome per se, whatever that is, especially If that 9ssuppsed om be the RCC, that has nothing to do with the MAN/Little Horn. The False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest. The Anti-Christ is a Gentile, born in Greece of Turkish descent, who has the right to be the E.U. President by birth (Greece). There  NO BEAST for 2000 years, the Beast as designed to make Israel repent, even going into Egypt, that as foretold to Abraham, that was designed to make Israel learn to rely on God. Then Assyria toted the Wicked northern kingdoms away, but they of course all still had seed in Jerusalem, so there were never any LOST TRIBES. Thus Babylon was allowed to conquer Israel to get them to return to God, but after 70 years, many wanted to STAY in Babylon (LOL), thus God TIMED their sentence from 70 years to 70 x 7 or 490 years, He them made a declaration that by the time the 490 years ends Israel will have repented, and God can't lie. 

So, when Jesus came and they CUT-OFF (killed) Jesus and rejected him, God turned His back on Israel for nigh 2000 years, thus this BEAST SENTENCE which God designed as 490 years of penance was STOPPED in 70 AD, even though Rome was still a Dominate power they actually ceased Beasting over Israel in 70 AD in God's eyes, because God says Israel was as DEAD MEN'S BONES from 70 AD until 1948 and it is Gods CONDITIONS, not ours, it is God's SENTENCE not ours, this is why the final week was PUT OFF, God stopped Israel penance by making them as nothing unto Him fpr nigh 2000 years, He h=just stated Israel does not exist any more as a Nation, th8s as a Nation they can not repent, nor can they bee Beasted over anymore until the end times, because they have been dispersed unto all the world. It's God's world, its God's SENTENCE, it is within God's right to do whatsoever He sees fit. He tells us what he did, that he made Israel as Dead Man's Bones and thus they do not exist any longer as a Nation until 1948, yet we still try to stretch the Beast out over the full 2000 some odd year Church Age. It doesn't work like that, These Beasts are all designed to get Israel to repent, nothing more, nothing less, thus with no Israel, there is NO BEAST to God either, because everything he is speaking about is DESIGNED to bring Israel unto Repentance, so "THE BEAST" from 70 AD to 1948 is irrelevant unto God, l4s we call China a Beast also, and England a Beast and the Ottoman Empire a Beast, but they are not, they never ruled over Israel while the Jews were a Nation. Thus whole BEAT CONCEPT is designed to bring Israel unto Repentance. Once the Church is Raptured, God allows the Man of Sin to go forth Conquering and he conquers Jerusalem and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 7th Head of the 7 headed beast.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified.

They are 4 until 70 AD when Israel goes away, Rome's DOMINION REMAINED, but the concept is all about making Israel repent. Thus in Rev. 13 we see the Lion, Leopard and Bear mentioned, then told there is a MORTAL WOUND (Rome) and that the Mortal Wound is Healed (The Anti-Christ or 5th Beast makes the BEAST over Israel come back to life again) via the Anti-Christ. Thus Rome was the 4th Beat and 6th Head and the Anti-Christ is the 5th Beast and 7th Head. The Little Horn comes up amongst the 10 or among FRACTURED Europe, which then comes together again in the end times.

 

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Further, God has "bracketed" this metal man so we also recognize the beginning and the end. The beginning of course is Babylon and the end is when this "Stone" is hurled down and destroys all of mankind's kingdoms, powers, practices, etc.

This metal man image is now a "closed system" if you will; we have the beginning and the end; we have each of the 4 kingdoms between the "brackets" with NO possibility of being added or subtracted between them. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!

Here is where you miss it. Don't think of the Images LIFE SPAN as being the Worlds life span. Think of the Images LIFE SPAN as being Israel's life span instead, and then it may click. The Penance is not fir the world, it s for Israel !! The Worlds Judgment comes via the Trumpet Judgments. The 490 years is  for Israel alone. There was no Israel from 70 AD to 1948, God tells us this in Ezekiel via the Prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones. Can says Israel is DEAD.......Then in the Last Days, God breathes LIFE back into Israel, we all now this, but too many miss its practicality. The Statue doesn't span WORLD HISTORY, it spans Israel's History !! God took the mantle away from Israel in Romans chapters 9-11 and gave the mantle of taking the Gospel of the world over unto the Gentile Church..........UNTIL........the time of the Gentiles be FULFILLED, then Israel and its 70th week is back on the clock. Thus the Statue is then destroyed in the final week, there has been 483 years of PENANCE by Israel, then God DELAYED the final week, took the mantel from Israel, gave it to the Gentile Church, and stated Israel was as DEAD unto Him. Nothing DEAD can pay penance can it? I mean, if God sees means dead, and I am begging God to forgive me, that means God will never hear me again. And by the way, this actually happens to individuals also, God gets to the point with people who have a seared conscience where He gives up on them and sees them as DEAD unto Him. 

So, the Statue represents Dominating Kingdoms who rule over Israel for 490 years. NOTICE, Israel has not been conquered sine they became a nation again, thus they are still at 483 years Penance ! The 490 years is all about Israel not the whole world.

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Unless I missed it, we are in agreement (too early to comment on church age and Revelation.... just want to study Daniel as though the two of us were doing this around the 1st century AD where we only have the OT on our desk.

 

Its all the same to me tbh. I can discuss it any way but when I speak about it it has to be all meshed together, because that is the way God sees scriptures.

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, I believe we might want to carve up these 4 kingdoms by time. We both agree it runs from Babylon to now but we have to try and identify the verses within each kingdom into their respective time slots.

Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8...

Now, if by Pagan Rome (they were all Pagan) you mean just the Old Roman Empire, well, that is a given. I do not however believe that stretches past 70 AD, even though Rome did dominate many more years, the Beast is all about Israel and her penance.

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Do you find:

1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 

Each Kingdom conquered the one before it, but Rome and Greece sort of lived in a sort of Unity, Rome even used Koine Greek as their Universal language. And the end time Beast is the same way sort of. He is BORN in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. or Fourth Beats foot print. Greece didn't quite end with Antiochus, but he was the TYPE Anti-Christ. He had a TYPE False Prophet (Jewish High Priest) named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews.

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked.

 

Each metal gets HARDER if you look at it, but Rome also conquered every square inch of the Mediterranean Coastline, whereas Babylon, Persia and Greece were more Eastern Centric in nature, The Last Beasts (Anti-Christs) Kingdom will look exactly the same on a map as the Fourth Beasts Kingdom.

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image.

 

Getting sleepy, excuse my spelling. I think the CLAY speaks of the Kingdom being FRACTURED or a bunch of SEPERATED Kingdoms that do not cling to one another fir at least 1500 years. 

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on.

 

I see the 10 as simply meaning ALL Europe. Where the Rome and Greek Kingdoms came from so to speak.

Going to hit the sack. God Bless. 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

No, I don'y agree that Rome is the final Beast. I think a MAN (Anti-Christ) is the final Beast and he just so happens to arise out of TWO BEASTS at once. He is born in Greece via Dan. 8:9, and arises to power via Europe sans Dan. 7:8-9. There is a 5th Beast, he is a MAN, we can see that in Daniel 7:11, it says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and he is cast into HELLFIRE. Not Beast Kingdom can be cast into hell, the LAST or 5th Beast is a MAN this is why he has the 666 number, 777 is God and 666 represents man. We don't see the first two heads of Rev. in Daniel either, but this Kingdom stretches from Egypt/Assyria to the Four Beasts pre the cross and one during the cross, then the Rome Beast as a Mortal Wound.......It goes away......then this MAN revives the east by conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region once again. So, on a map it looks identical to where it left off, but its not the same Beast whatsoever, its nigh 2000 years later, this is ONE MAN with all power who seeks to destroy all the Jews and who hates God. 

And I do not see it as Pagan Rome per se, whatever that is, especially If that 9ssuppsed om be the RCC, that has nothing to do with the MAN/Little Horn. The False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest. The Anti-Christ is a Gentile, born in Greece of Turkish descent, who has the right to be the E.U. President by birth (Greece). There  NO BEAST for 2000 years, the Beast as designed to make Israel repent, even going into Egypt, that as foretold to Abraham, that was designed to make Israel learn to rely on God. Then Assyria toted the Wicked northern kingdoms away, but they of course all still had seed in Jerusalem, so there were never any LOST TRIBES. Thus Babylon was allowed to conquer Israel to get them to return to God, but after 70 years, many wanted to STAY in Babylon (LOL), thus God TIMED their sentence from 70 years to 70 x 7 or 490 years, He them made a declaration that by the time the 490 years ends Israel will have repented, and God can't lie. 

So, when Jesus came and they CUT-OFF (killed) Jesus and rejected him, God turned His back on Israel for nigh 2000 years, thus this BEAST SENTENCE which God designed as 490 years of penance was STOPPED in 70 AD, even though Rome was still a Dominate power they actually ceased Beasting over Israel in 70 AD in God's eyes, because God says Israel was as DEAD MEN'S BONES from 70 AD until 1948 and it is Gods CONDITIONS, not ours, it is God's SENTENCE not ours, this is why the final week was PUT OFF, God stopped Israel penance by making them as nothing unto Him fpr nigh 2000 years, He h=just stated Israel does not exist any more as a Nation, th8s as a Nation they can not repent, nor can they bee Beasted over anymore until the end times, because they have been dispersed unto all the world. It's God's world, its God's SENTENCE, it is within God's right to do whatsoever He sees fit. He tells us what he did, that he made Israel as Dead Man's Bones and thus they do not exist any longer as a Nation until 1948, yet we still try to stretch the Beast out over the full 2000 some odd year Church Age. It doesn't work like that, These Beasts are all designed to get Israel to repent, nothing more, nothing less, thus with no Israel, there is NO BEAST to God either, because everything he is speaking about is DESIGNED to bring Israel unto Repentance, so "THE BEAST" from 70 AD to 1948 is irrelevant unto God, l4s we call China a Beast also, and England a Beast and the Ottoman Empire a Beast, but they are not, they never ruled over Israel while the Jews were a Nation. Thus whole BEAT CONCEPT is designed to bring Israel unto Repentance. Once the Church is Raptured, God allows the Man of Sin to go forth Conquering and he conquers Jerusalem and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 7th Head of the 7 headed beast.

They are 4 until 70 AD when Israel goes away, Rome's DOMINION REMAINED, but the concept is all about making Israel repent. Thus in Rev. 13 we see the Lion, Leopard and Bear mentioned, then told there is a MORTAL WOUND (Rome) and that the Mortal Wound is Healed (The Anti-Christ or 5th Beast makes the BEAST over Israel come back to life again) via the Anti-Christ. Thus Rome was the 4th Beat and 6th Head and the Anti-Christ is the 5th Beast and 7th Head. The Little Horn comes up amongst the 10 or among FRACTURED Europe, which then comes together again in the end times.

 

Here is where you miss it. Don't think of the Images LIFE SPAN as being the Worlds life span. Think of the Images LIFE SPAN as being Israel's life span instead, and then it may click. The Penance is not fir the world, it s for Israel !! The Worlds Judgment comes via the Trumpet Judgments. The 490 years is  for Israel alone. There was no Israel from 70 AD to 1948, God tells us this in Ezekiel via the Prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones. Can says Israel is DEAD.......Then in the Last Days, God breathes LIFE back into Israel, we all now this, but too many miss its practicality. The Statue doesn't span WORLD HISTORY, it spans Israel's History !! God took the mantle away from Israel in Romans chapters 9-11 and gave the mantle of taking the Gospel of the world over unto the Gentile Church..........UNTIL........the time of the Gentiles be FULFILLED, then Israel and its 70th week is back on the clock. Thus the Statue is then destroyed in the final week, there has been 483 years of PENANCE by Israel, then God DELAYED the final week, took the mantel from Israel, gave it to the Gentile Church, and stated Israel was as DEAD unto Him. Nothing DEAD can pay penance can it? I mean, if God sees means dead, and I am begging God to forgive me, that means God will never hear me again. And by the way, this actually happens to individuals also, God gets to the point with people who have a seared conscience where He gives up on them and sees them as DEAD unto Him. 

So, the Statue represents Dominating Kingdoms who rule over Israel for 490 years. NOTICE, Israel has not been conquered sine they became a nation again, thus they are still at 483 years Penance ! The 490 years is all about Israel not the whole world.

Its all the same to me tbh. I can discuss it any way but when I speak about it it has to be all meshed together, because that is the way God sees scriptures.

Now, if by Pagan Rome (they were all Pagan) you mean just the Old Roman Empire, well, that is a given. I do not however believe that stretches past 70 AD, even though Rome did dominate many more years, the Beast is all about Israel and her penance.

Each Kingdom conquered the one before it, but Rome and Greece sort of lived in a sort of Unity, Rome even used Koine Greek as their Universal language. And the end time Beast is the same way sort of. He is BORN in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. or Fourth Beats foot print. Greece didn't quite end with Antiochus, but he was the TYPE Anti-Christ. He had a TYPE False Prophet (Jewish High Priest) named Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews.

Each metal gets HARDER if you look at it, but Rome also conquered every square inch of the Mediterranean Coastline, whereas Babylon, Persia and Greece were more Eastern Centric in nature, The Last Beasts (Anti-Christs) Kingdom will look exactly the same on a map as the Fourth Beasts Kingdom.

Getting sleepy, excuse my spelling. I think the CLAY speaks of the Kingdom being FRACTURED or a bunch of SEPERATED Kingdoms that do not cling to one another fir at least 1500 years. 

I see the 10 as simply meaning ALL Europe. Where the Rome and Greek Kingdoms came from so to speak.

Going to hit the sack. God Bless. 

 

Well, hope you have a nice sleep! And thank you for all of your response.

RM, there is a tremendous amount of thought, opinion and interpretation provided in your response BUT so much is generated from verses not only outside of chapter 2, but from other books in the NT (Revelation).

You have presented your conclusions on Daniel through Revelation and there is no way we can or should be able to unpack that...

If we are going to understand where, when and why we begin to depart in our interpretations (not overall conclusions), we need to take complicated verse or a chapter by itself. We need to identify those actors, events and/or message WITHIN JUST THESE SPECIFIC VERSES ONLY.

We can not look forward and bring in our conclusions from later verses or books. This way we can identify each layer of interpretation that will form our conclusions.

So, if you are willing can you go back to my last post, which is just concerned with chapter 2 and provide your thoughts on what these verses give us?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Ok, I am not sure if I have lost the interest of RM or not in requesting he might want to take this "slow walk" with me through Daniel - and specifically, attempting to identify the actors, kingdoms, etc., associated with the metal man image. This first image / symbol is absolutely critical (my opinion) in our understanding / interpretation since it "locks in" so much information that will serve us as the "base or standard" to be carried forward when we attempt to interpret the coming symbols and messages in the later chapters of Daniel.  Chapter 2 is certainly interesting but we must be able and willing to "bounce" our coming interpretations in later chapters against it. It will keep us on track and prevent us from interpreting difficult verses that we believe has a message that goes against this "base" in chapter 2.

This is why is impossible to address, compare, or argue with ALL the interpretations of the book of Daniel (all chapters) and also bring in Revelation, Matthew and Mark and other NT books.

So, I have once again copied some of my thoughts / interpretations STRICTLY from chapter 2 and I would ask anyone / everyone to offer their thoughts / findings / interpretations on this metal man image.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time. However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS).

Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified.

Further, God has "bracketed" this metal man so we also recognize the beginning and the end. The beginning of course is Babylon and the end is when this "Stone" is hurled down and destroys all of mankind's kingdoms, powers, practices, etc.

This metal man image is now a "closed system" if you will; we have the beginning and the end; we have each of the 4 kingdoms between the "brackets" with NO possibility of being added or subtracted between them. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!

Unless I missed it, we are in agreement (too early to comment on church age and Revelation.... just want to study Daniel as though the two of us were doing this around the 1st century AD where we only have the OT on our desk.

Now, I believe we might want to carve up these 4 kingdoms by time. We both agree it runs from Babylon to now but we have to try and identify the verses within each kingdom into their respective time slots.

Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8...

Do you find:

1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 

2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked.

3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image.

4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on.

So, without leaving chapter 2 would you mind offering your thoughts on the above - whether you agree or not.... also, please add your findings to this keeping in mind we can not look further than chapter 2. I am not bringing attention to the "Stone" now because we all accept it represents HIS second coming and it is without controversy. 

Once again, sorry for the slow walk but I have found in my own studies just how easy it is to gloss over what seem like insignificant facts. 

Look forward to your comments and thoughts, Charlie

[Revelation Man]

On 2/19/2021 at 1:42 AM, Charlie744 said:

Well, hope you have a nice sleep! And thank you for all of your response.

RM, there is a tremendous amount of thought, opinion and interpretation provided in your response BUT so much is generated from verses not only outside of chapter 2, but from other books in the NT (Revelation).

You have presented your conclusions on Daniel through Revelation and there is no way we can or should be able to unpack that...

If we are going to understand where, when and why we begin to depart in our interpretations (not overall conclusions), we need to take complicated verse or a chapter by itself. We need to identify those actors, events and/or message WITHIN JUST THESE SPECIFIC VERSES ONLY.

We can not look forward and bring in our conclusions from later verses or books. This way we can identify each layer of interpretation that will form our conclusions.

So, if you are willing can you go back to my last post, which is just concerned with chapter 2 and provide your thoughts on what these verses give us?

 Thank you, Charlie 

My mom had to go to the Emergency room a couple days ago, spitting up blood, but it was just a nose bleed that had dripped into her throat overnight and congealed somewhat.

As per the bible, it basically tells us we have to see it through an OVERALL PRISM, as written by the Holy Spirit. When it says "Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept" it is telling us there is a uniformity in the bible that proves only God could be the author thereof. Now, I agree, a lot of people have a problem seeing this linear message, I can see it via all the passages because my calling is Prophecy. I can tie it together as God intended it to be tied together.

So, I disagree, we can unpack it that way because that is how God wrote it, all of the bible is meant to be a uniform message that ties together, so if someone can tie it together, that brings overall clarity. 

Its like a great defensive cord. in football and a great offensive cord. understanding they must work together. If you have a 10 point lead with 2 minutes left, you both get together and say, HEY, we are the greatest passing team ever, but we need to run the ball here and thus kill the clock.

To me, al the bible goes together and fits. God doesn't give us isolated scriptures brother.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time. However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS).

I stated there are 5 kingdoms/Beasts ABOVE twice.

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified.

The Metal Statue is not pertaining to WORLD HISTORY......

But instead to Israel's HISTORY under oppression...............LIKE BELOW

Babylon

Persia

Greece

Rome

Gap from 70 AD..................

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap until the Rapture and then the Anti-Christ CONQUERS Israel. (NOW........... or almost now)

Anti-Christ

The Gap has no part of the Statue in it because there was NO ISRAEL. God is showing us a Statue of OPPRESSION over Israel, you guys look at it as WORLD HISTORY, God is showing it as representing Israeli Oppression. (Beasts).

So, in essence, there is ZERO CHANCE you can understand my argument by sticking only unto Daniel 2, the Church Age is not a part of the Statue, thus that has to be stated. All the bible works together in reality.

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8...

Do you find:

1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 

Greece and Rome coexisted, and the Anti-Christ is from Greece and the Fourth Beasts territory at the same time, but he is a 5th Beast.

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked.

 

Rome conquered the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, as will the 5th Beast (A.C.) who comes out of the Fourth Beasts head (territory).

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image.

 

The Clay simply means the old fourth beast SEPERATED and Satan was trying to bring them back together for 2000 some odd years of the Church Age, but to no avail, until after the Rapture.

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on.

 

I can, they are all of Europe, if that means 20 nations or 27 nations, 10 represents the COMPLETE NUMBER THEREOF, thus the Little Horn CAME UP AMONG the 10 simply means he was born in Europe, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

My moms had to go to the Emergency room a couple days ago, spitting up blood, but it was just a nose bleed that had dripped into her throat overnight and congealed somewhat.

As per the bible, it basically tells is we have to see it through an OVERALL PRISM, as written by the Holy Spirit. When it says "Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept" it is telling us there is a uniformity in the bible that proves on God could be they author thereof. Now, I agree, a lot of people have a problem seeing this linear message, I can see it via all the passages because my calling is Prophecy. I can tie it together as God intended it to be tied together.

So, I disagree, we can unpack it hat way because that is how God wrote it, all of the bible is meant to a uniform message that ties together, so if someone can tie it together, that brings overall clarity. 

Its like a great defensive cord. in football and a great offensive cord. understanding they must work together. If you have a 10 point lead with 2 minutes left, you both get together and say, HEY, we are the greatest passing team ever, but we need to run the ball here and thus kill the clock.

To me, al the bible goes together and fits. God doesn't give us isolated scriptures brother.

 

 

First, I am very happy to hear your Mother is doing well and it was nothing serious.... that trumps ALL concerns! And let’s pray that she has no further concerns!

To be candid, I am not sure I understand your response to offer your thoughts on chapter 2 of Daniel.

Everyone who reads Daniel will interpret this chapter as it is read ... they will interpret the kingdoms, the metal images, etc. What I am attempting to do is to walk down chapter 2 with you ... slowly, as though this is the first time we both have read it... Now we can compare notes on what each of us sees through these verses..

Consequently, we will not be accessing any interpretations from later chapters in Daniel or ANY NT books. 

This will give us a “pure” chapter 2 interpretation to discuss before we move on to chapter 7.

Let me know if you would like to continue and thanks, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I stated their are 5 kingdoms/Beasts ABOVE twice.

The Metal Statue is not pertaining to WORLD HISTORY......

But instead to Israel's HISTORY under oppression...............LIKE BELOW

Babylon

Persia

Greece

Rome

Gap from 70 AD..................

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap

Gap until the Rapture and then the Anti-Christ CONQUERS Israel. (NOW)

Anti-Christ

The Gap has no part of the Statue in it because there was NO ISRAEL. God is showing us a Statue of OPPRESSION over Israel, you guys look at it as WORLD HISTORT, God is showing it as representing Israeli Oppression. (Beasts).

So, in essence, there is ZERO CHANCE you can understand my argument by sticking only unto Daniel 2, the Church Age is not a part of the Statue, thus that has to be stated. All the bible works together in reality.

Greece and Rome coexisted, and the Anti-Christ is from Greece and the Fouth Beasts territory at the same time, but its a 5th Beast.

Rome conquered the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, as will the 5th Beast (A.C.) who comes out of the Fourth Beasts head (territory).

The Clay simply means the old fourth beast SEPERATED and Satan as trying to bring them back together for 2000 some odd years of the Church Age, but to no avail, until after the Rapture.

I can, they are all of Europe, if that means 20 nations or 27 nations, 10 represents the COMPLETE NUBER THEREOF, thus the Little Horn CAME UP AMONG the 10 simply means he was born in Europe, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

Ok, apparently you responded with this post before I sent you my recent message.

I believe this exercise is not what you are interested in pursuing and that is ok!

But thank you for your comments, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Ok, RM seems very comfortable with his interpretation and understanding of Daniel and is not interested in walking slowly through some of the chapters in Daniel. Obviously he has put a tremendous amount of work and thought into Daniel and that is certainly understandable.

So, is anyone willing or interested in discussing chapter 2 and what JUST what this chapter is telling you? 

I have mentioned a few items in chapter 2 that I believe are important and relevant- the “bracket” concept, the limit of 4 kingdoms within this period covered by the metal man image, there is NO separation between these 4 kingdoms, they arrive in consecutive order without the need for us to “fill in “ other “actors” that may have come forth in our history books .... 

These are the findings or thought found in chapter 2 ONLY (as though we have not read any further in Daniel).

Anyone want to offer their findings or different opinions on what chapter 2 tells them?

This is not a difficult chapter BUT it is a very important one since what is thought/believed to be interpreted here will /should keep latter interpretations in line. 

Come on folks.. too much talent out there, Charlie 

 

[luigi]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok, RM seems very comfortable with his interpretation and understanding of Daniel and is not interested in walking slowly through some of the chapters in Daniel. Obviously he has put a tremendous amount of work and thought into Daniel and that is certainly understandable.

So, is anyone willing or interested in discussing chapter 2 and what JUST what this chapter is telling you? 

I have mentioned a few items in chapter 2 that I believe are important and relevant- the “bracket” concept, the limit of 4 kingdoms within this period covered by the metal man image, there is NO separation between these 4 kingdoms, they arrive in consecutive order without the need for us to “fill in “ other “actors” that may have come forth in our history books .... 

These are the findings or thought found in chapter 2 ONLY (as though we have not read any further in Daniel).

Anyone want to offer their findings or different opinions on what chapter 2 tells them?

This is not a difficult chapter BUT it is a very important one since what is thought/believed to be interpreted here will /should keep latter interpretations in line. 

Come on folks.. too much talent out there, Charlie 

 

If you will note there are five differing states of being to the statue. Head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, and fifth, feet of iron mixed with clay.

Plato also defines these five differing states of being in relation to how governments cycle through various methods of governing.

As such, I then recognize the five methods in which governments cycle, being those through Satan, which at some point soon the Lord will put to an end (Daniel 2:44).

Edited February 22, 2021 by luigi

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

If you will note there are five differing states of being to the statue. Head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, and fifth feet of iron mixed with clay.

Plato also defines these five differing states of being in relation to how governments cycle through various methods of governing.

As such, I then recognize the five methods in which governments cycle, being those through Satan, which at some point soon the Lord will put to an end (Daniel 2:44).

Luigi, thank you for your response. I certainly have learned there are others that also find 5 kingdoms - I believe RM himself believes that but not the same 5 as you.

I would ask you to read Daniel 2:39 - 43 where Daniel is interpreting the dream for Nebuchadnezzar. Remember, (my opinion) God is not interested in giving us or Nebuchadnezzar a lesson on governments, their cyclies or methods of governing, etc., He is revealing to us the 4 KINGDOMS that will arise from Babylon to the end of time. 

For me, it seems clear Daniel has stated there will be 4 kingdoms. When he gets to the 4th kingdom of legs, feet and toes, he does offer some additional information relative to this last kingdom that is NOT found in the previous 3; this is the only kingdom where he mentions it will be divided within itself. From 2:41 - 43, Daniel is telling us why the feet and toes are physically different than the legs of iron - it (this 4th kingdom and not another 5th kingdom) will be changed - not a new entity but from strong like iron to weak like clay and iron.

At this time, chapter 2, there is not much more given to us (unless I missed it and that is why I need others to offer their views, interpretations and findings), about these 10 toes other than they too are a mix of iron and clay.

So, as this time where we just finished reading Daniel chapter 2, is there anything else we might want to talk about / identify regarding the metal man image BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO CHAPTER 7 (because what we are given in 2 must not be contradicted in 7 or 8. Added to yes but not contradicted).

Thank you for responding and hopefully you and many others will offer their thoughts on this metal man image and the symbols in 7 and 8 in this slow moving process..... Charlie