What part of us goes to be with God in death?

[Starise]

A couple of questions that I think are relevant. 

Were we originally intended to die? IOW Would Adam and Eve have lived forever in their present states before the fall? 

If you say no, this raises a few additional thoughts. Obviously Adam and Eve were made to reproduce and even told to do so by God. So if men had not sinned, yet still reproduced no men would ever die meaning there would be too many men on Earth.How do you reconcile that?

Also, If you say no, this means that death as a curse from God is unnatural. We were never intended to be in any way "separated". One of the punishments for sin was death according to Genesis which leaves a bit of a conundrum for the first thought( what to do with all those people). Possibly the process or cyclical nature of our earthly transition into our heavenly transition was greatly changed. IOW the process wasn't a curse then as it was after the fall of man into sin. Same as the process of childbirth wasn't a curse to women before the fall. 

If this is true, then before the fall we might have still at some point transitioned in a much better way. This would infer that there could have been a transition that wasn't "death", yet it still resulted in some sort of change at life's end on earth. Everything in creation on earth is cyclic. Why would men be any different? Did trees live forever? Did animals live forever? No.

This idea would make the process of separation of the soul from the physical body natural as opposed to unnatural after men sinned. If the results of the separation are in fact seen as natural or cyclic, then it isn't a stretch to see our souls with the ability to function in another dimension retaining all of our "senses" on some other level.

Thoughts?

 

[Regenerated-Adult]

21 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Your body stays in the grave until it is resurrected. If a person is a true born again believer their soul goes to heaven. If they are not a believer their soul goes to Hades until they are judged in the great white throne judgment and then sent to hell. 

 

This depends upon how long a body is in a grave, to mention nothing of cremation and disintegration of bodies.  Hades is simply the Greek word for Hell anyway, which begs the question of why there are supposed to be 2 judgements for people that go to hell when they die and then go to hell a second time and are judged a second time.  Such a reading of scripture is very simple, based as it is on symbolic language in the apocryphal genre in the Bible.  Quite frankly, this kind of overemphasis on literalistic interpretations of symbolic writings is, I believe, anti-intellectual and ought to be expunged from Christianity.  

[Regenerated-Adult]

Hello there.  I think it's important to clearly define the words Sheol, Hades, Hell and Gehenna.  It's important to understand where these words come from historically and how they are related to each other.  It's important to understand that Judaism evolved after Christianity came into existence.  It's important to understand modern day accounts of NDEs.  It's important to understand the different genres of literature.  It's important to understand the paranormal and the supernatural, and the parapsychological.  I think it's important to understand the broader picture, so we can have as much information as possible about the afterlife.  It's important to take seriously any concepts like pre-existence of the soul prior to physical conception.  But it's most important to share different opinions in a spirit of love most of all.

[Still Alive]

The person.

And maybe the left big toe.:)

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Regenerated-Adult said:

Hello there.  I think it's important to clearly define the words Sheol, Hades, Hell and Gehenna.  It's important to understand where these words come from historically and how they are related to each other.  It's important to understand that Judaism evolved after Christianity came into existence.  It's important to understand modern day accounts of NDEs.  It's important to understand the different genres of literature.  It's important to understand the paranormal and the supernatural, and the parapsychological.  I think it's important to understand the broader picture, so we can have as much information as possible about the afterlife.  It's important to take seriously any concepts like pre-existence of the soul prior to physical conception.  But it's most important to share different opinions in a spirit of love most of all.

There are a lot of issues at hand, and what shall we do dig into everyone's philosophy? 

It's good to know something about their culture, which underlines their beliefs. 

If we follow the events with Adam and Eve , and the events with Abel and Cain, we have a lot on our plate to understand that Abel continue to live after his death.

God is acting and speaking in a way that Abel is not with him.

This is the highlight of those events.

Abel the seed of Adam and Eve the second born was accepted by God prior to his death.

That he died soon after God gave his witness that he is his beloved person at that time,

Abel was not in any disobedience to God, born in the world and was taught to understand right from wrong, or was born in a different world than the world Adam and Eve were "born", as we know how they came into existence. 

At the death of Abel we come to understand what God had acknowledged earlier. 

That man apart from eating from the tree of Life he cannot be with God, he has to live in a state being separated from God. 

In this Life God could approach man to help them and guide them and acknowledge them and their standing towards him. He was their God as long as they were alive.

But at the time of their death all ended. 

Upon their death they were under the God of the dead.  

Without an individual judgment but under the default inheritance from the result of Adam's disobedience. 

Mankind was under the Inheritance of Adam's disobedience, the Death Inheritance. 

The scriptures has put it this way;

Hades is Following Death, when death comes to a man only Hades is there to take him.

Till the time of Abraham where Hades is not there to take Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his descendants. 

Who at the time of their death were still alive to God. And their place after their death was their Inheritance the Bossom of Abraham in Sheol. 

A place in the earth but separated from the rest if the world who were in Hades. 

And this was the Inheritance of the people of God in the righteousness of Abraham and later in the righteousness according to the Law of Moses.

Till the time of Jesus Christ death when God in Jesus Christ reconciled the world unto himself. 

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Regenerated-Adult said:

This depends upon how long a body is in a grave, to mention nothing of cremation and disintegration of bodies.  Hades is simply the Greek word for Hell anyway, which begs the question of why there are supposed to be 2 judgements for people that go to hell when they die and then go to hell a second time and are judged a second time.  Such a reading of scripture is very simple, based as it is on symbolic language in the apocryphal genre in the Bible.  Quite frankly, this kind of overemphasis on literalistic interpretations of symbolic writings is, I believe, anti-intellectual and ought to be expunged from Christianity.  

All bodies will be resurrected no matter how long they have been in the grave. Hades is the temporary holding place for the unbeliever until they are judged. Then hell will be opened for the unbelievers.There is only one judgement for the believer and the unbeliever. God knows every person's heart. God and only God is the only one who will judge every human being. 

[Starise]

I am commenting only about the saved at death here.

I think I hear Josheb saying we aren't really separated in the true sense we might understand it. Separated here meaning the way some people see body and soul or body/mind/spirit. I get that. I don't understand your alternate view yet Josheb?

If it isn't what some think it to be, then what is it? Or what do you think it is?

If I understand correctly this "might" be what you are saying. 

-God has no time constraints which seems to play into your view.

-If time is of no consequence after death, this idea might support soul sleep and the lack of time that passes for the dead. If we say time doesn't matter, then being absent from the body and present with the Lord means something entirely different in that view. It seems instant but 100 years could have gone by. This would also seem to ignore what Jesus said to the thief on the cross if interpreted literally which I believe it was literal. "This day" you will be with me in paradise. A day is a unit of time and Jesus made sure to include that unit of time in his statement.

-The "body" maybe better said the "person" is not a separation as you seem to see it, it's a total person transitioned to another state. We can say this of Jesus because His body was not in the tomb. Our dead bodies presently ARE in the grave when we die. I can't see it as NOT being a separation of sorts if we don't have new bodies yet (like Jesus). That doesn't leave many options so far as I can tell. What is a "spirit" without a body? If we aren't taken immediately to be with the Lord then where are we? Some would say we are in a timeless stasis. 

All conclusions must inevitably lead to the same conclusion at the end. All believers will be saved , eventually in new bodies and with the Lord in glory.

[Riverwalker]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The story of poor Lazarus n the rich man told us that Abraham is in gehena n there is a gap dividing the good n the sinners.

If the saints of early church are already in heaven then there will be no use to rapture them as written in 1 Thes 4:16. For the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive n remain will be caugh up to gather with them to the cloud......

No One went to heaven before Jesus's Ressurection because no one was washed by the blood, and made righteous.  But on that day  Paradise, the dwelling of the righteous who died before Christ....was empty

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Whether anyone wants to do so or not that is invariably what happens. 

The rest of your post is very much your "philosophy." Where it bears integrity with scripture it is to be commended and we can find common ground from which to work as the conversation - the topical conversation - unfolds. Where it does not bear consistency with scripture it's just philosophy, and as such inclined to foster disagreement regardless of its actual content. 

For example, 

The statement, "Hades is Following Death, when death comes to a man only Hades is there to take him," is not correct if it is understood to say there is a lesser god named Hades who takes dead people to live underground in a miserable conscious life in his kingdom. That is not what Jesus taught! 

However, if we stay within Jesus' teachings (and those of the NT writers) then we should be able to agree, 

• There is something after physical death.
• We are conscious of that fact whether physically dying dead in sin or dead alive in Christ.
• The only two options are either dying dead in sin or dying dead in Christ.
• Jesus is God over both conditions; there are no lesser gods.
• Those falling into the latter category receive incorruptible and immortal life indwelt with God's own Holy Spirit and not merely a house outside Mt. Olympus.

There are a few more points that could be added to that list but we should all be able to agree with those five points. 

The matter at hand is "What part of us goes to be with God in death?" and at least one here has asserted the spirit goes to be with God while at least one or two others do not make discrete separations between the parts because they recognize a "spiritual body" exists. In that view a body also goes to be with God but it is not the body of flesh and blood we currently inhabit. 

Regenerated-Adult is spot on imo. Starise has posted several valid comments and inquiries. 

 

I think it is time for some terms to be defined because not all death is identical, and the terms Sheol, Hades, Hell, and Gehenna are not identical, and Jesus most definitely did not use those terms the way Jews and surrounding pagans did, and not all bodies are the same but that does not mean they are not bodies. 

Folks who use like terms with different meanings end up talking past one another, not talking with each other. 

Folks who use Jewish and pagan definitions and Jewish and pagan paradigms are not going to find agreement with those using the same terms as Christ used them. 
 

 

.

We cannot ignore what is written down in scriptures. 

(And something not understood, is not philosophy, it is time to ask questions).

Someone asked questions in relation how things were before Jesus Christ and before Abraham, and at the time of the first man to die "Abel".

This is one of the most important questions. 

In my post I did not yet comment about the Heavenly Inheritance for Man which came with Jesus Christ.

Who is the first resurrected from the dead who did not died again and the only one and no one else can claim that there is someone else besides Jesus Christ who was resurrected from the dead and he went back to his body (before it was corrupted) and he never died again , living forever in his body. 

My last post stopped when I said that: God reconciled the world to himself through Jesus Christ, or through the death of Jesus Christ. 

This is a well known scripture, it is easy to search and the fact remains that it is say that the world before the death of Jesus Christ was strange unto God the Heavenly Father. This cannot be denied.

The way to the Heavenly Father is only through Jesus Christ and only after the death of Jesus Christ. 

[Your closest friendnt]

God made a statement to Moses.

He said to him that he is not "the God of the dead".

He did referred to the God of the dead. 

Does the God of the dead has a name? 

Someone may argue that this is not relevant. 

But how it cannot be relevant when the OP has raised the argument by posting from ecclesiastes that at the time of death the spiritual man is going back to God and he gave his reason for that.

He said that after death the spiritual man is going to God forever to live there without his material wealth and his body.

Which makes sense when he says without his body.

He cannot see a blind man to live forever with God as a blind man.

And we understand the implications. 

People with deformities living forever in those states of being.

Farther he does not acknowledge the concept of people after their death being separated from God. 

Or he does not a aknowledge spiritual death.

So there many issues at hand.

As the OP did not say "which part of the Man in Christ goes to Heaven and then leave it like that, or post a relevant scripture from the teachings of the disciples.