Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Waggles]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

This  is exactly what we are supposed to do --- Pentecost ... be baptized in the Holy Spirit.... no water here.... that was John's way of baptizing .... Jesus would give us the baptism of the Holy Spirit....

That is a denial of the scriptures. 

And as for your thoughts on Philip and the eunuch - well let me be polite in the nicest way possible - supposition, reading into scripture fanciful doctrine.

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

If you do not mind I would like to offer some thoughts on this issue of WB. It is very clear we have @Episcopius, @Frits, @Waggles and I am sure others within this forum, along with another 1 billion Christians who may agree with them that the story of the eunuch is strong support for a continuation of a WB  in the NT. 

Unlike the 1.3 billion folks who have followed the "little horn" down the let's change the Sabbath to Sunday where there is ABSOLUTELY NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE IN THE NT TO SUPPORT IT (and oh by the way, the RCC also states that), there is this neat story of the eunuch who indeed was baptized in water...... OR WAS HE?

If we might look into the Scriptures in Acts we will find:

1) the eunuch had traveled all the way from his home south of Jerusalem to be saved. Unfortunately for him, that did not occur in Jerusalem and he began his return journey back south.

2) sometime during this trip, an angel of the Lord would come and speak to Philip and instruct him to immediately head down this road to the south. I am not sure but I do not believe Philip was told exactly why he was to do this... but of course he obeyed.

3) sometime later, Philip caught up with the eunuch,

4) it was THEN the Spirit of God told him to go up to the eunuch and join his chariot, and THIS is when he heard him reading Isaiah which prompted him to ask,"Do you understand what you are reading"? (This was the verse in Isaiah speaking about the Messiah being a sheep led to the slaughter ..... where He spoke not.....

5) the eunuch responded "how could I unless someone guides me", and invited Philip to sit with him and join him. 

6) the eunuch asked Philip just who are these verses speaking about. And then Philip starting to tell him how it spoke about the Messiah...HE HAD NO IDEA WHO THIS JESUS WAS .... this may have been his first visit to Jerusalem but he doesn't seem to know much about the Messiah, the Scriptures but for whatever reason (certainly he was part of God's Plan), he desired to be saved in this Jewish religion.... and this was around the time Stephen was in deep trouble .... and Paul was also involved in destroying followers of Jesus.

7) after Philip revealed to the eunuch all the wonderful prophecies about the Messiah within Isaiah, his eyes must have been opened and he felt such a tremendous filling of unbelief and joy... an unmistakable experience for sure!

8) now we learn that as they continued they came upon a body of water - perhaps a small river and here is when THE EUNUCH ASKED PHILIP WHAT IS TO PREVENT ME TO BE BAPTIZED....

So, here we are.... It is my opinion:

1) this story is not meant to support the continuation or the requirement for a WB even though it is found in the NT.  The primary message here is the -

              a) desire or faith this gentile had in being saved, even though he knew little  of the Scriptures and the Messiah and CERTAINLY NOT THE PENTECOST GIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

              b) this is about one, if not the first conversion of a gentile.

              c) this was entirely orchestrated by both the "angel of the Lord" and the "Spirit" - whether this was one and the same or not... I don't know but this is God's doing..... and it's focus is on a gentil conversion not a WB ritual. 

             d) the eunuch requested IF THERE WAS ANYTHING PREVENTED HIM FROM BEING BAPTIZED when he saw the water..... this was most likely all he had ever heard had been taken place among the Jews..... I feel quite comfortable that the climate in Jerusalem with Paul running around killing Jesus followers were not on all radio stations screaming about the Pentecost experience. In fact, I would be absolutely amazed that this eunuch's first visit to Jerusalem ever heard about the Holy Spirit... he had no idea who Jesus was.

2) God had his Hand all over this... consequently, He is not using this story to contradict His command to be baptized in the Holy Spirit... He is including this in Acts to reveal the blind faith of a gentile and his desire to be saved ----but he has absolutely no idea how to be saved, who can save him, and how the Scriptures had spoken of this Savior. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

 

Hi bro Charlie,

Yes the story of the eunuch from Acts 8  is strong support for a continuation of a WB in the NT.

But Charlie, how significant do you think the words of the Lord Jesus Himself are?
(With apologies if this has already been mentioned.)

Mat 3:15 KJV And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 KJV And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And then this text:

Han 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

The doctrine of baptisms is part of the foundation of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, as communicated to us in Hebrews 6:2.

God bless.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Frits

[Waggles]

[Guest clancy]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

If you do not mind I would like to offer some thoughts on this issue of WB. It is very clear we have @Episcopius, @Frits, @Waggles and I am sure others within this forum, along with another 1 billion Christians who may agree with them that the story of the eunuch is strong support for a continuation of a WB  in the NT. 

Unlike the 1.3 billion folks who have followed the "little horn" down the let's change the Sabbath to Sunday where there is ABSOLUTELY NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE IN THE NT TO SUPPORT IT (and oh by the way, the RCC also states that), there is this neat story of the eunuch who indeed was baptized in water...... OR WAS HE?

If we might look into the Scriptures in Acts we will find:

1) the eunuch had traveled all the way from his home south of Jerusalem to be saved. Unfortunately for him, that did not occur in Jerusalem and he began his return journey back south.

2) sometime during this trip, an angel of the Lord would come and speak to Philip and instruct him to immediately head down this road to the south. I am not sure but I do not believe Philip was told exactly why he was to do this... but of course he obeyed.

3) sometime later, Philip caught up with the eunuch,

4) it was THEN the Spirit of God told him to go up to the eunuch and join his chariot, and THIS is when he heard him reading Isaiah which prompted him to ask,"Do you understand what you are reading"? (This was the verse in Isaiah speaking about the Messiah being a sheep led to the slaughter ..... where He spoke not.....

5) the eunuch responded "how could I unless someone guides me", and invited Philip to sit with him and join him. 

6) the eunuch asked Philip just who are these verses speaking about. And then Philip starting to tell him how it spoke about the Messiah...HE HAD NO IDEA WHO THIS JESUS WAS .... this may have been his first visit to Jerusalem but he doesn't seem to know much about the Messiah, the Scriptures but for whatever reason (certainly he was part of God's Plan), he desired to be saved in this Jewish religion.... and this was around the time Stephen was in deep trouble .... and Paul was also involved in destroying followers of Jesus.

7) after Philip revealed to the eunuch all the wonderful prophecies about the Messiah within Isaiah, his eyes must have been opened and he felt such a tremendous filling of unbelief and joy... an unmistakable experience for sure!

8) now we learn that as they continued they came upon a body of water - perhaps a small river and here is when THE EUNUCH ASKED PHILIP WHAT IS TO PREVENT ME TO BE BAPTIZED....

So, here we are.... It is my opinion:

1) this story is not meant to support the continuation or the requirement for a WB even though it is found in the NT.  The primary message here is the -

              a) desire or faith this gentile had in being saved, even though he knew little  of the Scriptures and the Messiah and CERTAINLY NOT THE PENTECOST GIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

              b) this is about one, if not the first conversion of a gentile.

              c) this was entirely orchestrated by both the "angel of the Lord" and the "Spirit" - whether this was one and the same or not... I don't know but this is God's doing..... and it's focus is on a gentil conversion not a WB ritual. 

             d) the eunuch requested IF THERE WAS ANYTHING PREVENTED HIM FROM BEING BAPTIZED when he saw the water..... this was most likely all he had ever heard had been taken place among the Jews..... I feel quite comfortable that the climate in Jerusalem with Paul running around killing Jesus followers were not on all radio stations screaming about the Pentecost experience. In fact, I would be absolutely amazed that this eunuch's first visit to Jerusalem ever heard about the Holy Spirit... he had no idea who Jesus was.

2) God had his Hand all over this... consequently, He is not using this story to contradict His command to be baptized in the Holy Spirit... He is including this in Acts to reveal the blind faith of a gentile and his desire to be saved ----but he has absolutely no idea how to be saved, who can save him, and how the Scriptures had spoken of this Savior. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

 

Charlie for me personally I was baptised in the Holy Spirit, before reading any Bible,God testifying to my Spirit, that I am his child, my Spirit knew straight away that it was him, he drew me to him ,there was no resistance from me,I actually fell in Love with Him that night and have been in Love with only him since,30yrs....I was baptised in water by the church I attended....I did it out of obedience....but water baptism doesn’t save you...again like you Charlie...my thoughts.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, clancy said:

Charlie for me personally I was baptised in the Holy Spirit, before reading any Bible,God testifying to my Spirit, that I am his child, my Spirit knew straight away that it was him, he drew me to him ,there was no resistance from me,I actually fell in Love with Him that night and have been in Love with only him since,30yrs....I was baptised in water by the church I attended....I did it out of obedience....but water baptism doesn’t save you...again like you Charlie...my thoughts.

Thank you for your response. I agree with you and have found that many churches insist their new members are water baptized.

 I have been told it is not a salvation issue but an outward show of being saved by the HS to the church congregation. 

But I was surprised to learn I could not and would not be a member unless I participated. 

Charlie 

 

[Guest clancy]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your response. I agree with you and have found that many churches insist their new members are water baptized.

 I have been told it is not a salvation issue but an outward show of being saved by the HS to the church congregation. 

But I was surprised to learn I could not and would not be a member unless I participated. 

Charlie 

 

Agree....as I was a new babe at the time, so just went with it,..I am surprised that you couldn’t be a member unless you were baptised in water....I really don’t understand that, it’s like a forcing,God Would never force..he waits patiently.

Edited March 13, 2021 by clancy

[Marathoner]

26 minutes ago, clancy said:

Agree....as I was a new babe at the time, so just went with it,..I am surprised that you couldn’t be a member unless you were baptised in water....I really don’t understand that, it’s like a forcing,God Would never force..he waits patiently.

I was in your position, @clancy. When the Lord sent me to the fellowship in countryside I was clueless, and when I was told it was time to be baptized in water I assented. That was the extent of my knowledge.

I believe this is a matter of conviction, similar to observing the Sabbath day (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday). When I'm the guest of brothers and sisters who observe the Sabbath day I join them; should I refuse? Should I speak ill of their observance? Not at all.  

To answer the OP, that's how it unfolded for me. But I am in no way convinced that water baptism is a requirement for the Lord never spoke of the water, only that I would go where He sent me.    

Edited March 13, 2021 by Marathoner

[Charlie744]

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

If you do not mind I would like to offer some thoughts on this issue of WB. It is very clear we have @Episcopius, @Frits, @Waggles and I am sure others within this forum, along with another 1 billion Christians who may agree with them that the story of the eunuch is strong support for a continuation of a WB  in the NT. 

Unlike the 1.3 billion folks who have followed the "little horn" down the let's change the Sabbath to Sunday where there is ABSOLUTELY NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE IN THE NT TO SUPPORT IT (and oh by the way, the RCC also states that), there is this neat story of the eunuch who indeed was baptized in water...... OR WAS HE?

If we might look into the Scriptures in Acts we will find:

1) the eunuch had traveled all the way from his home south of Jerusalem to be saved. Unfortunately for him, that did not occur in Jerusalem and he began his return journey back south.

2) sometime during this trip, an angel of the Lord would come and speak to Philip and instruct him to immediately head down this road to the south. I am not sure but I do not believe Philip was told exactly why he was to do this... but of course he obeyed.

3) sometime later, Philip caught up with the eunuch,

4) it was THEN the Spirit of God told him to go up to the eunuch and join his chariot, and THIS is when he heard him reading Isaiah which prompted him to ask,"Do you understand what you are reading"? (This was the verse in Isaiah speaking about the Messiah being a sheep led to the slaughter ..... where He spoke not.....

5) the eunuch responded "how could I unless someone guides me", and invited Philip to sit with him and join him. 

6) the eunuch asked Philip just who are these verses speaking about. And then Philip starting to tell him how it spoke about the Messiah...HE HAD NO IDEA WHO THIS JESUS WAS .... this may have been his first visit to Jerusalem but he doesn't seem to know much about the Messiah, the Scriptures but for whatever reason (certainly he was part of God's Plan), he desired to be saved in this Jewish religion.... and this was around the time Stephen was in deep trouble .... and Paul was also involved in destroying followers of Jesus.

7) after Philip revealed to the eunuch all the wonderful prophecies about the Messiah within Isaiah, his eyes must have been opened and he felt such a tremendous filling of unbelief and joy... an unmistakable experience for sure!

8) now we learn that as they continued they came upon a body of water - perhaps a small river and here is when THE EUNUCH ASKED PHILIP WHAT IS TO PREVENT ME TO BE BAPTIZED....

So, here we are.... It is my opinion:

1) this story is not meant to support the continuation or the requirement for a WB even though it is found in the NT.  The primary message here is the -

              a) desire or faith this gentile had in being saved, even though he knew little  of the Scriptures and the Messiah and CERTAINLY NOT THE PENTECOST GIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

              b) this is about one, if not the first conversion of a gentile.

              c) this was entirely orchestrated by both the "angel of the Lord" and the "Spirit" - whether this was one and the same or not... I don't know but this is God's doing..... and it's focus is on a gentil conversion not a WB ritual. 

             d) the eunuch requested IF THERE WAS ANYTHING PREVENTED HIM FROM BEING BAPTIZED when he saw the water..... this was most likely all he had ever heard had been taken place among the Jews..... I feel quite comfortable that the climate in Jerusalem with Paul running around killing Jesus followers were not on all radio stations screaming about the Pentecost experience. In fact, I would be absolutely amazed that this eunuch's first visit to Jerusalem ever heard about the Holy Spirit... he had no idea who Jesus was.

2) God had his Hand all over this... consequently, He is not using this story to contradict His command to be baptized in the Holy Spirit... He is including this in Acts to reveal the blind faith of a gentile and his desire to be saved ----but he has absolutely no idea how to be saved, who can save him, and how the Scriptures had spoken of this Savior. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

 

I went back to my notes on the eunuch story and want to emphasize the following:

1) as mentioned above, the entire story was designed and completely orchestrated by two Spirits- an angel of the Lord and One identified as a Spirit. 

Their mission was not concerned with a WB but the salvation of this eunuch. He was not a Jew, had very little understanding of the Scriptures, did not know a “Messiah or Jesus” person, BUT the story emphasized his unique desire to be saved as a gentile. 

Then Philip was told to sit with him and found him completely confused with Isaiah 53... he wanted to understand the person it was speaking of... Only AFTER he was tutored by Philip was his desire for his understanding of the Scripture and his one step closer to being saved fulfilled (not the entire Scriptures of course but one of the most important prophetic verses in the OT....

There certainly was no opportunity in Jerusalem for him to converse with those who believed in the Messiah and so God intervened and sent His HS or His angel of the Lord (both) to save him. Essentially, the eunuch had a very personal visit from the HS —- this is certainly so much more support and consideration he was indeed baptized by the HS.

Only later further down the road did the eunuch see a body of water... and then he asked if there is anything preventing him from being baptized! In God's eyes, he had clearly demonstrated his want to be saved... he had indeed already been saved.... he just did not understand that after the Cross, Jesus would send His HS and the ritual of a WB was eliminated or no longer necessary.

Two points here: he had no prior knowledge of a HS. He could only have been aware of what the Jews had practiced at least during his lifetime. 

Also, his question to Philip about whether there was anything preventing him from being baptized tells us that he had to indeed met all the requirements for baptism- he had the want and desire to receive the Spirit of Salvation (we also must ask the HS to come into us). He had done that by his actions to travel to Jerusalem and attempt to understand His Word.

His question was NOT one that indicated baptism would save him but it was an external practice he saw the Jews observe. He was already saved. 

The more I consider this story and the very specific manner / words used in giving us a step by step account from his travel to and from Jerusalem and his DESIRE for his Salvation, the more it moves quickly away from being a supporting story for a WB but for the desire, faith and effort to seek Salvation for this s gentile and DURING a extremely murderous time for all those found to be a follower of this Messiah. 

Well, FOR ME, I am even more convinced what this story is meant to tell us and it is not to support a WB. This just happened to be AT THE END OF THE IMPORTANT EVENTS IN THESE VERSES, Charlie 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Charlie744

[Waggles]

Acts 9:17  So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 
18  And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 

Acts 22:15  for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 
16  And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ 

[Justin Adams]

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, FOR ME, I am even more convinced what this story is meant to tell us and it is not to support a WB.

No. Not baptism per se. This account is related to the ingathering of all Jews first, and then gentiles second. The eunuch was most likely of the Ethiopian Israeli line that travelled down the Nile early on and later have now been mostly all airlifted back to Israel. Note that in the table of nations, the NT writers take care to mention all the countries/nations in the Tanakh that were scattered at Babel, with the promise to Abram for a later blessing thru him.

Note the next place Philip is sent to. Very telling.