Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Waggles]

Hebrews 6:

1  Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us be borne on unto the perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,- 
2  the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 
3  And this will we do, if only God permit. 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Waggles said:

NO - God insists on the necessity for water baptism. Baptism is of deep spiritual significance and the scriptures 

1: command us to do so

With all due respect, where does He say this ?

2 minutes ago, Waggles said:

2: inform us that it is for the remission of our sins

Where is this in the Scriptures...... doesn't John tell us that there is One coming who will baptize you in the HS........ Did not Jesus tell Nicodemus he must be born again of the HS?

2 minutes ago, Waggles said:

3: the Christians that we read of in Acts and the epistles ere all baptised in water and baptised in the Holy Spirit

4: Jesus himself was baptised in water to fullfil all righteousness and then baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was baptized in the water by John to FULFILL the Scriptures... He certainly did not need to be cleansed...... He was "as a man" obeying His Father's Laws found in Leviticus.... He would never disobey God..... 

 

2 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Luke 18:16  But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 
17  Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 

Not sure how this ties in with WB.....

Let me ask you a question if you do not mind...... and this is NOT in any way suggesting my opinions here are correct or trump yours..... but would you mind offering your opinion / response / thoughts on what WE (not just myself) have offered as opposed to your responding with your conclusions....

I believe we all understand your conclusions but reply to some of our "thoughts" on the subject and not just tell us we are "wrong".... 

That is not meant to be offensive in any way.... but our responses should /could be improved / eliminated / etc,. if you might comment on them ... Clearly you know so much more of the Scriptures than I ever will but it does all come down to how each of us interpret them.....

 Thanks so much, Charlie

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Hebrews 6:

1  Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us be borne on unto the perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,- 
2  the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 
3  And this will we do, if only God permit. 

I am not sure the meaning of "baptisms" here is speaking of WB...... 

Doctrine is called baptism, Deuteronomy 32:2; hence the people are said to be baptized to Moses, when they were initiated into his doctrines, 1 Corinthians 11:2. The baptism of John was his doctrine, Acts 19:3; and the baptism of Christ was the doctrine of Christ, wherewith he was to sprinkle many nations, Isaiah 52:15. 

Let me know your thoughts on the above, thanks, Charlie

[Justin Adams]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I am not sure the meaning of "baptisms" here is speaking of WB...... 

Doctrine is called baptism, Deuteronomy 32:2; hence the people are said to be baptized to Moses, when they were initiated into his doctrines, 1 Corinthians 11:2. The baptism of John was his doctrine, Acts 19:3; and the baptism of Christ was the doctrine of Christ, wherewith he was to sprinkle many nations, Isaiah 52:15. 

Let me know your thoughts on the above, thanks, Charlie

Correct. It is the Holy Spirit fire he is talking about.

[Justin Adams]

55 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Hebrews 6:

1  Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us be borne on unto the perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,- 
2  the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 
3  And this will we do, if only God permit. 

Water baptism and circumcision are the same. Tell me where circumcision had any real effect on the sinning Israelites that opostacise? Similarly, many murderers and rapist are baptised I am certain. They are COMMUNITY events and in the early church the WB rite included denouncing all evil accoutrements. It was a 'one upmanship' against the principalities and powers, thumbing the nose at the workers of iniquity. The best kind of spiritual warfare is by attrition - one person at a time transferred into the kingdom of light. So if your WB rites include a good sermon on the Deut 32 worldview, It may be of use. Otherwise it is just a 'club thing' very often.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Heleadethme]

Mat 28:18-20

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mat 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Rom 6:3-5

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Not going to be able to catch up with all that has already been said on this thread, but some understanding that I received from the Lord is the following, in case it’s helpful.  We are called to repentance..... Jesus went out preaching, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  So, yes, we need to be baptized unto repentance as well.  Not that it is water baptism that saves us in itself, no...but it is a kind of prophetic act (likeness) that depicts the washing away of our sins....the death of our old man and resurrection unto new life in Christ.....it seals our salvation.  A kind of spiritual weapon, as it were, that helps to solidify our confession of faith as an “act” of faith in itself.  Faith without works is dead....confessing with our mouth is one “work”, submitting to water baptism is another...as we begin obeying the gospel of Christ.  Putting feet to our faith.

It’s like communion is also a prophetic act....the bread and wine being accepted in heaven by proxy (likeness) for the body and blood of Jesus, renewing and refreshing His sacrifice to us, as it were....an “act” of RE-membering and re-appropriating His death on the cross, because the sacrifices had to be eaten by the people offering them (or the priests ate them in their stead by proxy) in order for the sacrifice to be applied to the people offering them.  The Lord’s supper has real power, as does water baptism...since they are ordained by God and accepted by Him when we do these things by faith.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I think I will go with John on this one
 

1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
KJV
 

This is a universal saying and can be apply to anyone who leaves any kind of group when one refuses to walk with what that group it stands for.

Being in a political group, athletic group, or any religious groups of the say core values or not. 

It was said about Luther because he refused to walk in the errors of his mother group, because his eyes were open and refused to walk in their errors. 

When he withdrew his blind royalty and obedience. 

When he was set free from their doctrines that keep believers serving the church instant of Jesus Christ. 

When he followed Jesus Christ.  

Coursed by them, bless blessed by Jesus Christ. 

Please you are using this to Judge any one who disagree with you, even those who were not in your group to start with.

You must provide proof that one time they were members of your particular set of beliefs first.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Correct. It is the Holy Spirit fire he is talking about.

Or to be baptized in him is to believe in him, and you are seeking after him, trying to please him while you are trying to please the master who baptize you in water.

 

[Starise]

 Who added OSAS into this? Like this thread wasn't long enough already

For the sake of my own brain I'm attempting to condense these thoughts. 

I think we can all safely agree baptism DOES NOT SAVE a man. 

Then we part ways. Group A. Baptism really means nothing so I'm not about to do it. Baptism basically disappeared.

Group B. Baptism is tied to obedience to scripture and as an outward symbolic act. I believe there is plenty of scriptural support for this idea and almost nothing to support idea A.

If you're in group A I still consider you a brother. To be clear, I am not waffling on my stance of it. I am solidly in group B.

We all have biases. I was raised in a Baptist church all my life where this was taught. Am I biased? I don't think so. You might think so from the outside looking in. Were you not exposed to baptism in any way shape or form? If so then I would expect a person in this category might need a little more convincing, especially if your present church doesn't teach it. The church I now attend has the Lord's table at least every month, but hasn't had a baptism in a year. They are Presbyterian and I think since there are members here in disagreement with infant baptism (including me) they avoid it except  on special occasions. I don't make a big deal about it or create a "stink", but we went through their new members class and they know what I believe. Neither did they deny me membership because of it. I wondered if someone came to them wanting to be immersed would they do it?

As I see this, the big question is probably, How strongly do you feel baptism is an act of open symbolic obedience to Christ? If you are doubtful I would suggest maybe it's better to be safe than sorry.  On the other hand, if it means absolutely nothing to you and you will not be convinced that it's an act of obedience, then there's nothing I'm going to try to do to change your mind. If God saved you, He will lead you to the correct answers if you truly want them. I believe there is simply too much in the Bible to deny the reality of baptism right along with the Lord's table.

After reading the thread I predict no one is going to change anything lol.

[Justin Adams]

One thing some do well is talk out of both sides of the mouth. The ones that insist on baptism are most likely to say, OH, the Sabbath - well, we are free to ignore the 4th.