No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Charlie744]

36 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Could just mean the end of Jeremiah's 70 years. The sin is paid for, you are forgiven and OK now. Back in the promised land and with the Temple rebuilt. It is not as simple as prophecy buffs make out.

"the already, but not yet".

Now that’s what I am talking about!

Charlie

[Justin Adams]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Now that’s what I am talking about!

Most of what Luke relates Yeshua saying happened in AD70. It is very clear.

Luke 12:21. [them which are in Judea] This expression again most clearly proves what was the near horizon of this Prophecy.

[flee to the mountains] The Christians, in consequence of “a certain oracular utterance” (Euseb. H. E. iii. 5), or an angel-warning (Epiphan. Haer. i. 123), but more probably in consequence of this warning, fled, before the siege, out of Judaea, to the little Peraean town of Pella, among the Transjordanic hills.

Luke 21:21

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains,
 (See Gill on Matthew 24:16).

And let them which are in the midst of it;
either of Judea, as the preceding clause seems to direct the sense; or in Jerusalem, and which indeed was in the midst of Judea; and this sense is favoured by the Persic version, which renders it, "within the city"; let them go out of it, as the Christians did to Pella, Mount Libanus, and other places:
and let not them that are in the countries;
either foreign countries, or in towns and villages; enter thereinto:
either into Judea, or into Jerusalem;

In AD70, contrary to this advice, they came from all countries to the feast of the passover at Jerusalem, and were there shut up by the siege and destroyed F3.
(F3 Joseph. de Bello Jud. l. 7. c. 17.)

-------------

We just cannot futurize all this stuff AKA Darby and the many 'experts'. It is all way to convoluted and complex. That things will happen in our future is a given, but 2-3000 years ago, this was just not in sight.

I hold to none of the 'modern' systems. I hold to a few portions and I do as commanded - do not worry since no one knows the day or hour.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Could just mean the end of Jeremiah's 70 years. The sin is paid for, you are forgiven and OK now. Back in the promised land and with the Temple rebuilt. It is not as simple as prophecy buffs make out.

"the already, but not yet".

No, the Jews wanted to stay in Babylon, they loved it there, you need to read up on these thigs more sir. In Leviticus when you continue sinning the punishment is TIMED by 7, so why do you think God came to Daniel via Gabriel and told Daniel that now the sins of Israel would not be 70 years by 70 TIMES 7?  This is where the whole 490 years comes from, BUT.......What of it ended after 70 years just makes zero sense brother. How do you nit understand this, I mean I get some people are not prophecy wonks like me, but the bible has a STORY in it that tells us why Israel's punishment was multiplied times 7 !!

Have you ever read Daniel 9 in full ? It starts like this, Daniel was reading from the book of Jeremiah, making supplications unto God knowing that the 70th year of Israel's captivity was coming soon, he of course wanted God to free his people. He spoke in prayer to God how his people had sinned against God, not hearkened unto his precepts etc. The Prayer ends like THIS........Then Gabriel shows up:

Dan. 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. 20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you not understand Gabriel just proved your 70 year "MAYBE" theory to mush? Gabriel's just told us above that there are NOW 490 years (70 x 7) or 70 weeks of PUNISHMENT not 70 years, because Israel still had not REPENTED.

I don't get how you could make the above statement unless you just don't understand the prophecy at all brother.

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Now that’s what I am talking about!

 

YOU TOO ? How do you not understand that the punishment escalated from 70 years to 7o x 7 here ? It went from 70 years to 70 weeks of punishment.

As per the above post. Agreeing or disagreeing is not that important, truth is all important to me. There aren't two truths, and I don't just guess. The difference is I never espouse something to be of the Holy Spirit until the Spirit affirms it, I don't really take into account what men think or say tbh.

God Bless.

The 70th week will be here within 10 years. Mark it down. I will not be here.

[Justin Adams]

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The 70th week will be here within 10 years. Mark it down. I will not be here.

You are quite welcome to your view. If the Lord tarries pasy my 3-score and ten, then I will be here as well as you.

Blessings.

[Charlie744]

26 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, the Jews wanted to stay in Babylon, they loved it there, you need to read up on these thigs more sir. In Leviticus when you continue sinning the punishment is TIMED by 7, so why do you think God came to Daniel via Gabriel and told Daniel that now the sins of Israel would not be 70 years by 70 TIMES 7?  This is where the whole 490 years comes from, BUT.......What of it ended after 70 years just makes zero sense brother. How do you nit understand this, I mean I get some people are not prophecy wonks like me, but the bible has a STORY in it that tells us why Israel's punishment was multiplied times 7 !!

Have you ever read Daniel 9 in full ? It starts like this, Daniel was reading from the book of Jeremiah, making supplications unto God knowing that the 70th year of Israel's captivity was coming soon, he of course wanted God to free his people. He spoke in prayer to God how his people had sinned against God, not hearkened unto his precepts etc. The Prayer ends like THIS........Then Gabriel shows up:

Dan. 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. 20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you not understand Gabriel just proved your 70 year "MAYBE" theory to mush? Gabriel's just told us above that there are NOW 490 years (70 x 7) or 70 weeks of PUNISHMENT not 70 years, because Israel still had not REPENTED.

I don't get how you could make the above statement unless you just don't understand the prophecy at all brother.

YOU TOO ? How do you not understand that the punishment escalated from 70 years to 7o x 7 here ? It went from 70 years to 70 weeks of punishment.

As per the above post. Agreeing or disagreeing is not that important, truth is all important to me. There aren't two truths, and I don't just guess. The difference is I never espouse something to be of the Holy Spirit until the Spirit affirms it, I don't really take into account what men think or say tbh.

God Bless.

The 70th week will be here within 10 years. Mark it down. I will not be here.

RM, I am very sorry we do not seem to interpret Daniel the same, and I will confess, and have mentioned this a number of times, that YOUR interpretations are certainly more in line or for that matter, fit in quite well with "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel. I KNOW mine are not since they are just mine and I am still in-process of completing 11.

Now, we did attempt to walk through Daniel 2 and then onto 7 & 8 but it just did not materialize. And of course, chapter 9 would have been also quite interesting to discuss.....

Now, in regards to both the 70 years and the 70 week prophecy, here is a summation of my interpretations:

1) The 70 years the Jews were kept in Babylon was a "punishment" for disobeying God's Sabbath. And you are certainly correct in that it had to meet the requirements of Leviticus.

2) But the 70 weeks prophecy or 490 years beginning with the decree by Cyrus to allow them to return to Israel, this was NOT a 490 year PUNISHMENT. It was a period for their "restoration". I hope I remember this correctly, but in Leviticus, there is a multi-level requirement for restoration - the people, the land and the Temple / Sanctuary. Each must be "restored".

This is the reason why God had "carved up" the 490 years into 3 separate periods. In EACH 0f the 3 carve outs, God identified exactly what would be restored... He walks us through it: here is what will be restored in the seven weeks, here is what will be restored during the next 62 weeks, leaving the last week or 7 years remaining. Now just about EVERYONE contends this last 7 year period has been thrown into the far future and is still yet to happen....NO, I mean absolutely NO.

Trace the separate requirements in Leviticus for restoration to these same "carve out" periods in Daniel (70 weeks)..... God would certainly obey His OWN REQUIREMENTS FOUND IN LEVITICUS TO RESTORE HIS LAND, HIS PEOPLE AND THE TEMPLE / SANCTUARY. \

So, after the completion of the 69 weeks or 483 years, there is ONLY ONE REQUIREMENT REMAINING - the restoration of the Temple / Sanctuary. In chapter 9, there are the 6 requirements identified to accomplish this last "restoration carve out" and it has to be fulfilled in the last week of Daniel's prophecy. Again, MOST have thrown this week into the future but that is entirely due to a Jesuit priest named Riberi in 1520. He was commissioned to construct or find an interpretation within Daniel that would remove the "accepted understanding" that the papacy was indeed the "little horn" of Daniel. This was also the same time of the Reformation and so many were attacking the RCC (Luther, so many more). This priest came up with these interpretations that would ensure this "little horn" (the "HE" in 9:27 was really a "he" and the AC figure). And, since this AC figure had yet to arise, it would have to come even later  on than the 1500's and thus COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE THE PAPACY! And they promoted this and its related / necessary interpretations throughout the RCC and it stuck ---- very well until this day. In fact, just about everyone believes this to now be "gospel" if you will.

However, the 6 requirements WOULD INDEED be fulfilled by the ONLY ONE who was able - THE MESSIAH. And this is really what Daniel is about..... the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation. Many may contend and argue He did not YET complete or fulfill all 6 but that would be a grave mistake. This last week is THE most important week in Daniel's prophecy - revealing the coming of the Messiah and His MISSION OR those 6 requirements to complete. If we are to look into those requirements from HIS view and not from a 6 ft (man's) level, we can easily see they relate to HIS PLAN OF SALVATION FOR MAN for the coming 2,000 years WHERE we have been given the greatest gift / option - if we accept Him as our Messiah we will be saved. This "restoration" process  - the last 6 requirements to be fulfilled by the Messiah HAD TO BE COMPLETED  - His Plan of Restoration according to Leviticus would / could never have been fulfilled. 

The Messiah would serve as OUR HIGH PRIEST, THE PERFECT SACRIFICIAL LAMB, AND THE CLEANSED TEMPLE / SANCTUARY in order to complete the restoration process. 

Stand back and look at the entire 49o year prophecy - it reflects and is meant to do one thing - after the Jews disobeyed God for the millionth time, they were made captive by the Babylonians.... and all of this was predicted in Jeremiah - along with a "New Covenant" God would establish. This last week is the completion of God's Plan to restore His People, His Land and His Temple/Sanctuary ONCE AGAIN AND THIS WOULD ALSO BE THE FINAL RESTORATION OR allowance that would be given to the Jews. This was to be one more attempt for them to obey God and forgo any type of idolatry - ever again. 

Also remember, that Jeremiah would take and hid the ARK from the Babylonians prior to their taking the Jews captive.... even IF all the land, people and buildings / Temple was properly restored, it would still not have God's Presence within the Holy of Holies.... it would still be a beautiful Temple where the Jews would worship but without His Holy Presence. Consequently, the Messiah would also restore His Holy Presence in the Sanctuary. The restoration of it all would now be complete - IN  PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER CEREMONY. This is when the Messiah would also be the Passover Lamb..... but He was rejected by His own people.

Despite that He was "cut off" in the "midst of the week" (almost in Daniel 9), He would tell us a few things while still on the Cross that confirms (for me) that He certainly indeed fulfilled and completed all 6 requirements in 9:27,when He said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do", and "it is finished". Despite the crucifixion and they (Jews) prevented HiM from living the FULL 7 years of Daniel's last week, He would "finish" all 6 of 9:27.

Now, one can accept the RCC's interpretation of Daniel and believe God had instructed Daniel to write about some AC boogeyman figure or realize that Daniel has one purpose in mind -- to reveal the final "restoration" of the Jews in anticipation for the coming Messiah and all the events that have indeed taken place as a result of His crucifixion (and this is seen in chapter 11 - once again, God is giving us His prophecies that speak about HIM and not a Ptolemy or an AC, Berenice, Cleopatra or AE)...... The Scriptures and especially Daniel reveal the coming Messiah.... or stay with the interpretations of the "little horn" which just happen to also be prophesied quite adequately in chapter 11 - speaks against God, think to change times and laws.... on and on.  

Just my thoughts and I apologize for vomiting out all of this..... I am right in the middle of 11 and I breath this stuff every day and have been for over 7 months......

Thanks for your attention and patience, Charlie
 

 

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

You are quite welcome to your view. If the Lord tarries pasy my 3-score and ten, then I will be here as well as you.

Blessings.

That's all well, but I notice you dodged the point, which means you know now you were in error. It is important we get things right brother.

[Justin Adams]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's all well, but I notice you dodged the point, which means you know now you were in error. It is important we get things right brother.

Another flawed assumption. It is not important at all that 'we get things right'.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Another flawed assumption. It is not important at all that 'we get things right'.

Paul said it was important. Jesus also said truth is important. 

The Punishment was 490 years, not 70 years. You not getting that right is a fatal flaw via your Eschatology. I think you understand its 490 years, but "YOUR ARGUMENT" was so important you lost track of your bearings trying to overcome my uneatable argument.

 

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

uneatable

Did you mean unbeatable? It doesn't matter anyway. As a slip it is revealing because I do not 'swallow' your ideas either.

[WilliamL]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:27 PM, Charlie744 said:

Now, back to this subject. WilliamL, if I understood your detailed comments, there are 3 actors you identified: destroyer, a desolator and a commander... and I really did not learn too much after that...... 

Once again, if you would be so kind, can you place a one or two word answer / response adjacent to EACH of the 7 items I listed in my recent post?

My previous post was needed to show that the Hebrew text does not support certain presumptions in your questions.

On 2/28/2021 at 12:01 PM, Charlie744 said:

^:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’^[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’^[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple^[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

1) who is "he" in the above verse,   Answer: Vespasian

2) what "covenant" is being spoken of,  Answer: The one he made with the Jews of the land, particularly the Galileans.

3) what is meant by the 7 years,   Answer: The Jewish War of 66-73 A. D.

4) what happens in the "middle / midst of the week",   Answer: Titus' troops destroyed the Sanctuary.

5) who puts an end to the daily sacrifice and offering,   Answer: Titus

6) what is the AOD,     Answer: This term is not found in the Hebrew, as I showed in my previous post. For starters, the Hebrew is plural: abominations.

7) what is "poured out" or made "desolate",     Answer: Destruction was poured out via the Roman military upon the "desolator" (and his forces), John the Zealot.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by WilliamL