No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's not what Paul says, so either Paul is lying or you are confused. To be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord is just Paul comforting them telling than that you do not need to be afraid of dying, when we leave this body we will "EVENTUALLY" be with the Lord forever. Just like Daniel will EVENTUALY be with the Lord forever, but not until the END.

That's not what Paul says  You should have said, "that's not what I THINK Paul said. We have a disagreement on what we think Paul said. 

Sorry, Paul did NOT say "eventually." That is your thinking - forcing human imagination into a verse of scripture. 

What does it mean: "absent from the body..."
"Away from home out of the body"
"away from the body "
"leave the body"
"leave our home in the body"
"leave these bodies "
"out of the body"
"away from this body"

Will believers be away from their body at the rapture? NO NO NO! We will be IN our body but it will be changed. 

Paul is talking about DYING - our physical body stopped functioning - no heart beat - so the spirit with the soul LEAVES the body. In all of time and outside of time, at physical death and then until the resurrection is the only time our human spirits will be body-less - living outside of a body.

And Paul is very clear, when a believer dies, his her her spirit is escorted straight to heaven.

What? Do you ignore the hundreds of testimonies of people who have died (temporarily) - gone to heaven - and then got prayed back? 

telling than that you do not need to be afraid of dying You got this part right. Oh death, where is thy sting? We as believers have no fear of death. SOME of the believers know that the moment after death, we are with the Lord. 

You will not find soul sleep in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus: upon death their human spirits WENT SOMEWHERE. One went to the place of torment and the other to a place of rest: called then Abraham's bosom. Today it is heaven. 

End of story. Any other theory is leaving the believes and doctrines of the church.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Alright Iamlamad, I can see you failed Algebra and are just trying to get me confused. You can't change God's formula because there are some / more than some verses down the line that SEEM to contradict THIS FORMULA. No, we have to look and interpret THOSE LATER VERSES using THIS formula and they will then speak a different message to us. We can not have a floating definition of what a "living soul" is depending on when these translated words are used and in what context.

Do you really believe God would give us (not me) THE formula in the beginning of all things man and then contradict HIMSELF in later books? I simply am saying that He is quite specific in identifying how HE made man and it is up to us to learn it, accept it and use it going forward even when WE think is says something more- where We expand the formula.  

Now, if you don't believe the A + B = C in 2:7, then what does it say or mean ---- and you can not skip to some later verses in Paul or whoever or wherever to use as your support ..... because they can not contradict HIS formula, Charlie

I don't see the New Testament as contradicting the Old. Rather, it brings more and better understanding. What would man be if there was no understanding, no memory, no will, and no emotions or affections? I guess the best answer would be "useless."

It is the soul of the man that makes each man different. It is what makes me be ME. There is not another human born ever with my emotions, affections, memories etc. 

Did the Old Testament show the triune Godhead clearly? No. At least no where near as clearly as the New. Did the Old Testament Saints know that God was a trinity? I doubt it. 

I suspect  you will disagree.

However, all is not lost, because when we arrive in heaven, we will certainly know the truth and will then agree!

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now this is good stuff! (Sorry for the technical term).

By the way, it says, “RATHER” be absent from the body......  this has to be one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses in the Bible.... by so, so many- they had / have their own agenda and as we have all heard before, “follow the money”.

Charlie

People, far too often, jump on any portion of anything that they thinks backs up their position, instead of trying to find's God's truth, which is His position, which should be our goal. Mt position is just that, it is my understanding, if I knew it all I would not need the Holy Spirit in me to lead me unto all truth, so my goal is to be led by the holy spirit unto these truths.

 

A perfect example of this is Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. In Daniel it says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED (killed) and he is cast into hell. In Revelation is says the Beast is cast STRAIGHT into hell ALIVE.

So, which is it? Well, it is of course both, God doesn't lie, we misinterpret. Daniel is very clear, the Beast is killed, so our perception of Rev. 19:20 must be OFF-KILTER. Him being CAST ALIVE into hell can't mean he is never killed, so it has to be referring to our souls as immortal,  we know every man must die and be judged according to God's holy word, so this man dies and is judged, BUT his soul is never allowed to rest like those who will be judged at the Second Resurrection in 1000 years, thus he is cast ALIVE (no rest) straight into hell fire. He's not thrown into hell without dying or without being judged first.

When the bible contradicts itself, it is up to us to find out where we are misconstruing God's holy word or where the translators messed up. God doesn't make mistakes, men do.

[Revelation Man]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That's not what Paul says  You should have said, "that's not what I THINK Paul said. We have a disagreement on what we think Paul said. 

Sorry, Paul did NOT say "eventually." That is your thinking - forcing human imagination into a verse of scripture. 

What does it mean: "absent from the body..."
"Away from home out of the body"
"away from the body "
"leave the body"
"leave our home in the body"
"leave these bodies "
"out of the body"
"away from this body"

Will believers be away from their body at the rapture? NO NO NO! We will be IN our body but it will be changed. 

Paul is talking about DYING - our physical body stopped functioning - no heart beat - so the spirit with the soul LEAVES the body. In all of time and outside of time, at physical death and then until the resurrection is the only time our human spirits will be body-less - living outside of a body.

And Paul is very clear, when a believer dies, his her her spirit is escorted straight to heaven.

What? Do you ignore the hundreds of testimonies of people who have died (temporarily) - gone to heaven - and then got prayed back? 

telling than that you do not need to be afraid of dying You got this part right. Oh death, where is thy sting? We as believers have no fear of death. SOME of the believers know that the moment after death, we are with the Lord. 

You will not find soul sleep in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus: upon death their human spirits WENT SOMEWHERE. One went to the place of torment and the other to a place of rest: called then Abraham's bosom. Today it is heaven. 

End of story. Any other theory is leaving the believes and doctrines of the church.

The problem with you and others is you do not recognize these letters/epistles for what they were, correspondence between two parties where PREVIOUS UNDERSTANDINGS had been submitted, therefore when writing out a letter, they did not go into GREAT DETAIL on things they already had an understanding about.

For instance, when Paul is telling the Thessalonians about the [Church] DEPARTING in 2 Thess. 2:3 he doesn't need to say "THE BODY OF Christ will Depart" he just says DEPART, and now we have those who say, "OOOooohhhhhh, Paul did not say it was the Church, thus it must be THE FAITH that is being departed from". (even though FAITH is not mentioned anywhere in the whole passage, and the Gathering unto Jesus Christ is mentioned in the very first verse. Thus, when dealing with correspondence between two parties, we have to use common sense and fill in the blank, we have to understand in a LETTER which takes a lot of time to write, things which were stated before matter of factly, or not going to be flushed out in great detail again, which is my biggest problem with using Paul's writing as scriptures, which Paul never intended them to be, else he would have been more detailed and nuanced in his writing's.

So, in verse 5, we are told about their correspondence.........

1 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(God's Wrath) shall not come, except there come a falling (Departing) away first [of the Church], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(The Anti-Christ shows up BEFORE the Wrath also);

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In verse 5 we are told that Paul and the Thessalonians had already discussed these things, thus Paul does have to go into GREAT DETAIL about it being the Church he was talking about DEPARTING FIRST, before the Wrath of God fell, it was a KNOWN UNDERSTANDING between the Thessalonians and Paul, which they had spoken of in an earlier encounter, thus Paul just says THE DAPRTING, i verse 1 he has already spoken about the Gathering together unto Christ.

Likewise, you make the SAME MISTAKE as they do in the verses above, you do not take into account the fact that Paul and the people he was writing letters unto had PREVIOUS CORRESPONDENCE, thus he didn't have to spell things out unto them to the nth degree each time he wrote a letter. They were discussing the FUTURE of our SOULS after we DIE on this EARRTH.

Thus Paul tells them what will be for ETERNITY, when we die and leave this body, we will be with the Lord for ETERNITY..........Zillions of years = Eternity, yet you somehow allow a few years, which in the equivalence of things must seem like mere seconds, to overrule the point Paul is making unto them, by supper imposing your understanding that there is never any Rest in the graves, even though we know Daniel is told he would not be raised until the VERY END. So, I use common sense, I don't jump to conclusions because of a letter which doesn't have all of the correspondence between the two parties. You jump on every word without taking that factor into full consideration. 

I know the DEAD in Christ are raised AFTER they REST, the bible says so. I know we do not go straight to heave, Paul says WE SLEEP. Jesus talks about Abrahams Bosom, where a great gulf exists. Jesus went to Paradise, not Heaven per se, to preach to the lost souls. 

We indeed rest in our graves until the Rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

46 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The problem with you and others is you do not recognize these letters/epistles for what they were, correspondence between two parties where PREVIOUS UNDERSTANDINGS had been submitted, therefore when writing out a letter, they did not go into GREAT DETAIL on things they already had an understanding about.

For instance, when Paul is telling the Thessalonians about the [Church] DEPARTING in 2 Thess. 2:3 he doesn't need to say "THE BODY OF Christ will Depart" he just says DEPART, and now we have those who say, "OOOooohhhhhh, Paul did not say it was the Church, thus it must be THE FAITH that is being departed from". (even though FAITH is not mentioned anywhere in the whole passage, and the Gathering unto Jesus Christ is mentioned in the very first verse. Thus, when dealing with correspondence between two parties, we have to use common sense and fill in the blank, we have to understand in a LETTER which takes a lot of time to write, things which were stated before matter of factly, or not going to be flushed out in great detail again, which is my biggest problem with using Paul's writing as scriptures, which Paul never intended them to be, else he would have been more detailed and nuanced in his writing's.

So, in verse 5, we are told about their correspondence.........

1 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(God's Wrath) shall not come, except there come a falling (Departing) away first [of the Church], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(The Anti-Christ shows up BEFORE the Wrath also);

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In verse 5 we are told that Paul and the Thessalonians had already discussed these things, thus Paul does have to go into GREAT DETAIL about it being the Church he was talking about DEPARTING FIRST, before the Wrath of God fell, it was a KNOWN UNDERSTANDING between the Thessalonians and Paul, which they had spoken of in an earlier encounter, thus Paul just says THE DAPRTING, i verse 1 he has already spoken about the Gathering together unto Christ.

Likewise, you make the SAME MISTAKE as they do in the verses above, you do not take into account the fact that Paul and the people he was writing letters unto had PREVIOUS CORRESPONDENCE, thus he didn't have to spell things out unto them to the nth degree each time he wrote a letter. They were discussing the FUTURE of our SOULS after we DIE on this EARRTH.

Thus Paul tells them what will be for ETERNITY, when we die and leave this body, we will be with the Lord for ETERNITY..........Zillions of years = Eternity, yet you somehow allow a few years, which in the equivalence of things must seem like mere seconds, to overrule the point Paul is making unto them, by supper imposing your understanding that there is never any Rest in the graves, even though we know Daniel is told he would not be raised until the VERY END. So, I use common sense, I don't jump to conclusions because of a letter which doesn't have all of the correspondence between the two parties. You jump on every word without taking that factor into full consideration. 

I know the DEAD in Christ are raised AFTER they REST, the bible says so. I know we do not go straight to heave, Paul says WE SLEEP. Jesus talks about Abrahams Bosom, where a great gulf exists. Jesus went to Paradise, not Heaven per se, to preach to the lost souls. 

We indeed rest in our graves until the Rapture.

 

You can rest if you choose to. The rest of the body of Christ upon death will go to be with Jesus. 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't see the New Testament as contradicting the Old. Rather, it brings more and better understanding. What would man be if there was no understanding, no memory, no will, and no emotions or affections? I guess the best answer would be "useless."

It is the soul of the man that makes each man different. It is what makes me be ME. There is not another human born ever with my emotions, affections, memories etc. 

Did the Old Testament show the triune Godhead clearly? No. At least no where near as clearly as the New. Did the Old Testament Saints know that God was a trinity? I doubt it. 

I suspect  you will disagree.

However, all is not lost, because when we arrive in heaven, we will certainly know the truth and will then agree!

Very nice and thank you for your thoughts!

I have to agree with you that those in the OT did not / could not / would not consider a triune God! They (Jews) always believed in ONE GOD- which up to that time was a ridiculous concept- everyone had multiple gods. The “schema” certainly expresses their thoughts...  

I apologize for repeating myself but when things get too confusing for me (Scripture / their interpretations, etc.), I always try and return to the beginning and whatever/wherever the issue started. In my opinion, this all begins at 2:7. If you / everyone agrees this IS HIS formula for man then we must understand it and not add or subtract from it - and I believe God would not or does not either! Certainly there are more than one verses which almost prove or support a 3 part being but I believe we are just not interpreting these latter verses as intended- IF as I believe it is within HIS Plan to restore His Holy Spirit back into “our being / our living soul”, then all subsequent verses (Paul of course) are intended to once again include the restoration of this Holy Spirit back into this “living soul / being”. 

When He created / formed us He gave us a body WITH ALL the emotions, attributes, individuality, awareness, thinking, conceptual ability, and on and on. But in addition to ALL of this God also breathed HIS Holy Spirit into us. We were a “living being/soul” both WITH AND WITHOUT His Holy Spirit in us. But of course we list this later when we sinned and had to leave His presence. We were never created to die - but without His Holy Spirit (after we sinned), we brought in mortality and separation from Him. So without this Holy Spirit we now have to experience a physical death and where we cease to be a “living soul”. Once again, we have ALWAYS been a “living soul”, but no longer Holy - we lost His Spirit. 

His Plan is to restore His Holy Spirit WITHIN us once again- while still on earth we MUST accept Jesus as our Messiah AND accept His Holy Spirit within us. This “acceptance” is certainly a very real happening and NOT just some symbolic exercise BUT we will not be “perfected” in the Holy Spirit until His second coming. If we turn away from this gift while on this side of Heaven, there is no second chance to have His Holy Spirit placed once again within us- then this “living soul / being” will and must be destroyed by His presence- we must be born twice and die once or be born once and die twice! 

Therefore, IF the above is true (and it is so far for me), then 2:7 gives us the “perfected living soul / being”, then the fall where we lost His Holy Spirit, and then any verse speaking and including the 3 parts or 3 terms (body, soul and spirit) together are referring to this “perfected living soul/ being” and our attempt  and need for a complete restoration. 

The “living soul / being” created by God in the Garden could never die - it was “perfected”. The “living soul / being” after the fall had to die - it lost His Holy Spirit. 

Again, just MY thoughts here, Charlie 

[Justin Adams]

The two persons of the Godhead was a well known and taught part of Israeli theology. Until the Christians came along. Then they declared it a heresy after the first century.

The pre extant Yeshua can be seen often in the Tanakh. Sometimes both Yahweh and the 'angel of the lord', Yeshua, are present together. When the Lord touches Jeremiah or Samuel he is in anthropomorphic form. Also in the exodus narrative. He is seen in Daniel presenting Himself to The Ancient of Days in the Divine Council.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Justin Adams

[missmuffet]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

God doesn't change sister. Jesus pointed out that the souls of those in Abrahams bosom waited to be judged and there was a great gulf between them and the wicked men's souls. The thief was to be with Jesus in paradise on that very day (Good Friday) but not in Heaven, Paradise is Abrahams Bosom, or a holding place for souls.

1 Cor. 15 is real clear on this subject if one puts it all together. Most people start with verse 50, but we need to start with verse 42.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Corruption = Sin Flesh

Incorruption = Spirit Man

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (Sin Flesh = Corruption here and incorruption here stands for Heaven, that which is being INHERITED, only an incorruptible Spirit Man can inherit an incorruptible heaven.)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (Paul says we SLEEP, except those alive when Jesus returns), but we shall all be changed (meaning we die and are changed from a Sin Flesh to a Spirit Man which NEER SLEEPS but goes straight to Heaven),

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (Without Sin Flesh), and we shall be changed(From humans with CORRUPTBLE Sin Flesh, to Spirit Men who can thus go to Heaven INCORRRUPTIBLE, just like those raised without Corruption, or with no Sin Flesh).

53 For THIS corruptible(Sin Flesh) must put on incorruption(The Spirit Man. meaning WE DIE), and this mortal must put on immortality.(Our flesh man is left behind, we go to Heaven  as Spirit men, then receive our Glorious bodies after Judgment.)

54 So when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Why does Paul sat we shall not all sleep when talking about the Raptured who are alive? Because ALL the other who die before the Rapture are SLEEPING, that is al it can mean sister. No one goes to Heaven, God is going to have continual judgments every time some one dies. Daniel is told that the righteous will be raised at the VERY END in Daniel 12:1-3. 

People who dream or see visions of loved ones in Heaven are seeing into the future, just like Paul did in the book of Revelation. 

1 Cor. 15 is pretty clear on this tbh.

The soul goes immediately to heaven or hades. 

Question: "What happens after death?"

Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?
First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-after-death.html

Edited February 10, 2021 by missmuffet

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The two persons of the Godhead was a well known and taught part of Israeli theology. Until the Christians came along. Then they declared it a heresy after the first century.

The pre extant Yeshua can be seen often in the Tanakh. Sometimes both Yahweh and the 'angel of the lord', Yeshua, are present together. When the Lord touches Jeremiah or Samuel he is in anthropomorphic form. Also in the exodus narrative. He is seen in Daniel presenting Himself to The Ancient of Days in the Divine Council.

Good points: All three parts of God were seen in OT scripture. 

[Revelation Man]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can rest if you choose to. The rest of the body of Christ upon death will go to be with Jesus. 

So Paul lied? And Gabriel lied to Daniel. Your problem is you do not register that which is clearly written. Its not that difficult, but you have a way of making it difficult.  HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND?

1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (So, Paul's says ALL SLEEP, except those who are LIVING at Jesus Christs return, but you can't get that? Why? Its pretty basic stuff.) but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(WHEN? At the Last Trump, or when the Harvest/Church Age ends, NOT WHEN THEY DIE !! Its pretty basic stuff), and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I do not understand how this is so difficult to follow. I do understand in reality, people start believing something, like the 144,000 are Super Preachers, and it gets in their bones, and they can't overcome those beliefs (Men's traditions) and it hinders their ability to see the truths of God in the scripture.

It doesn't get any easier to discern than this tbh.