No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Starise]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:17 PM, iamlamad said:

John does not tell us who the 24 elders are, so I don't try to guess. At that timing, while Jesus was still on earth (the timing inside the vision John was seeing) only Old Testament saints (in their spirit form) were in heaven. They could therefore be Old Testament saints, such as Adam and Seth. Who could be more "elder" than them? 

The New Testament saints are a part of the born again body of Christ on earth. That was not available until after Jesus died and rose from the dead - so clearly two different groups of saints.  

The story of the rich man and lazarus leaves no room for guessing.  It is clear the bible often uses the word "sleep" for death.  Since you go by reading the scriptures, Paul wrote that Jesus will bring WITH Him those who have died in christ.

 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

... shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Do you really think they will be "sleeping" in their spirit form in heaven?  I don't think so. I think "sleep in Jesus" is talking about those who have died in Christ.

The rest of the passage bears this out.

 

Well we both guessed here because you can't confirm your theory either  I am basing my hunch on the fact that God has always had a ruling council, the lesser elohim. He did not NEED a ruling council because He is the creator. Same way He doesn't NEED us.

If you look back, this council was in place before the creation of the world.

These discussions are circular( meaning they go in unprofitable circles) . I am willing to admit there are things we simply won't understand until glory. Because of conflicting scripture I can't say without reservation ALL passages that say rest or sleep are referring to only the physical body.

Yes there are plenty of people who claim NDE experiences. No doubt some of them are selling books. Is there an interim  state where we are still lucid?  Ecclesiastes says "the dead know nothing"..........how do you get yourself out of that one?

Is there a splintered sort of being after death where part of you will be resurrected at a later time ( because it sleeps) and another part of you is with the lord in the same way as I am with people around me here on earth? You have to see the contradiction here. The only way to reconcile it is to say every passage that says we sleep simply means our bodies are dead with living souls. 

I go back to original creation. What was the intent? Adam and Eve could have children before the fall. This would seem to suggest that there was a life cycle in place before the fall. The question is, was death a natural occurrence before the fall? If not, men who die are in an unnatural state. Predestination can get in the way here so far as an explanation is concerned. According to most teaching and what the scriptures tell us, it would seem death or at least the manner and timing of death are unnatural. IOW what happens to us after death is not something God would have planned...or would he? SIN resulted in death. Here is a dilemma.

If you say death is unnatural( because of sin) and by inference, death is some sort of clean up operation or a plan B, then what God is doing is a correction. Old bodies will die because of sin and we eventually get new bodies. This means the STATE you are in after death is part of a clean up operation to get us humans back into our original states. Whatever this plan involves it takes place well into the future in order for us to be complete.

Until then, the dead understandably are NOT complete. 

[DeighAnn]

What are our LABORS here on earth?  SPREADING THE GOOD NEWS.

When we die, or pass from death to life aka from terrestrial to celestial, WE REST BECAUSE there is no more spreading the good news on earth for us.  
 

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

UNTIL THE FACT THAT WE ARE THE ANGELS that DESCEND down the ladder to be born of woman (terrestrial), then ascend back in our Father in heaven (celestial) at the death of the FLESH (which goes back to dust)  
NOTHING WILL FIT. 

ONCE YOU DO GET A HOLD OF THIS MOST SIMPLE FACT THEN

1.  When the terrestrial flesh being dies, the spiritual celestial being goes back to GOD.

2.  The resurrection that takes place on YOUR LAST DAY, is INSTANT.  The only time of a MASS RESURRECTION will be is WHEN CHRIST RETURNS as Lord of Lords and King of Kings on the Day of Vengeance. (cause there is a massive group of 'MARKED FOR dead', my words, walking around on the earth when He does return)

3.  There can be NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE BECAUSE ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED.  Let that sink in.  That is a WRITTEN FACT.  THAT LEAVES NO ONE IN THE FLESH.  It doesn't happen TWICE because IT CAN'T HAPPEN TWICE.  


 WHAT did the fallen angels do?  THEY LEFT their habitation. 
Because 'they left' - THEY COULD NOT "return unto God who gave it" Could not RETURN BECAUSE THEY LEFT, GOD DIDN'T GIVE.  THEY WERE NEVER 'BORN FROM ABOVE' , they FELL, they were never 'BORN OF WATER' (flesh, terrestrial) that's why their kids were so different. 

THAT'S WHY THEY CAN'T EVER CHANGE THEIR FATE.  


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them ALSO  which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.  (BRING, LEAD, CARRY) 

IF THIS WAS A 'RESURRECTION OF THE LAST DAY' THEN JESUS AND GOD WOULD ALSO BE COMING UP FROM THE EARTH AND NOT DOWN FROM HEAVEN.  
Bring  = coming with you
Lead = going in FRONT OF
Carry = AGAIN, must be with you

QUIT CHANGING GODS WORDS TO FIT YOUR BELIEFS.  DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, SO WHAT.  GOD WILL GIVE TO YOU ON HIS TIME NOT YOURS.  JUST TAKE IT AS FACT AND MOVE ON.  ONCE YOU START DOING THIS THEN YOU CAN MATURE BECAUSE ONLY THEN CAN THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN LEAD. 

UNTIL YOU DO, THEN ALL YOU HAVE IS VANITY.  


Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

WHO IS JOHN TALKING TO?  AN ANGEL. 
WHO DOES THIS ANGEL SAY HE IS?   OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS.  

CAN THIS BE MADE ANY MORE CLEAR???  NOW AN ANGEL OF OUR BRETHREN , THE PROPHETS.  

DON'T UNDERSTAND IT?  DON'T LIKE IT?  DOESN'T FIT?  DOESN'T MATTER.
TAKE IT AS A FACT AND WHEN GOD WANTS YOU TO HAVE IT, HE WILL GIVE IT.  IF YOU KEEP TRYING TO 'MAKE IT FIT' YOU ARE WORSHIPPING YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND NOT THE WORD OF GOD.  IT REALLY IS ALL THAT SIMPLE.  The Holy Spirit can lead and guide you NO WHERE till then.  

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


Would a 'pre trib rapt' be a SIGN?  A wonder?  
PLAIN AND BASIC FACT OF IT IS 

It goes AGAINST how GOD PERFECTS US.  How we mature.  How we are taught.  How we learn.  

If EVEN HE did it HIMSELF, went through this METHOD, why would He allow those who He would just assume spit out of His mouth (IN OTHER WORDS THOSE WHO NEED IT MOST)   SKIP IT???
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
 

1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

1Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

1Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

1Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

1Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, THAT YE SHOULD FOLLOW HIS STEPS.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE PRE TRIB RAPTURE?

1Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

 

WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT being given 'A SIGN'?

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven.

He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.  (BE NOT DECEIVED BY ANY MAN, THERE WILL BE WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS)

And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?  (NATION AGAINST NATION, PESTILENCES..)

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; And there SHALL NO SIGN BE GIVEN UNTO IT,  but the sign of the prophet Jonas,  And he left them, and departed. (BUT SATAN IS COMING WITH LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS)

Matthew 16:5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

WHAT IS THIS LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES? 

A LITTLE TWIST IN GODS WORD.  The place that SATAN works BEST.  A tiny bit of false doctrine will RUIN YOUR ENTIRE LOAF.  

It's a narrow path, not a crooked one.  It is a simple path, not a confusing one.  A little child can understand it BETTER THAN A WISE MAN CAN.  

EVERY TIME WE SEEK TO 'EXPLAIN' FOR OURSELVES WHAT IS WRITTEN, WE LOSE.  


 

John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

SO, CAN'T BE DEAD.  CAN'T BE DEAD IN CHRIST.  CAN'T BE DEAD AT ALL.  THE ONE AND ONLY THING THAT 'DIES' IS THE FLESH THAT IS ATTACHED TO US.  

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I pray the HOLY SPIRIT OPENS our eyes and ears to THE TRUTH OF HIS WORDS.  PRAISE YE THE LORD

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What are our LABORS here on earth?  SPREADING THE GOOD NEWS.

When we die, or pass from death to life aka from terrestrial to celestial, WE REST BECAUSE there is no more spreading the good news on earth for us.  
 

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

UNTIL THE FACT THAT WE ARE THE ANGELS that DESCEND down the ladder to be born of woman (terrestrial), then ascend back in our Father in heaven (celestial) at the death of the FLESH (which goes back to dust)  
NOTHING WILL FIT. 

ONCE YOU DO GET A HOLD OF THIS MOST SIMPLE FACT THEN

1.  When the terrestrial flesh being dies, the spiritual celestial being goes back to GOD.

2.  The resurrection that takes place on YOUR LAST DAY, is INSTANT.  The only time of a MASS RESURRECTION will be is WHEN CHRIST RETURNS as Lord of Lords and King of Kings on the Day of Vengeance. (cause there is a massive group of 'MARKED FOR dead', my words, walking around on the earth when He does return)

3.  There can be NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE BECAUSE ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED.  Let that sink in.  That is a WRITTEN FACT.  THAT LEAVES NO ONE IN THE FLESH.  It doesn't happen TWICE because IT CAN'T HAPPEN TWICE.  


 WHAT did the fallen angels do?  THEY LEFT their habitation. 
Because 'they left' - THEY COULD NOT "return unto God who gave it" Could not RETURN BECAUSE THEY LEFT, GOD DIDN'T GIVE.  THEY WERE NEVER 'BORN FROM ABOVE' , they FELL, they were never 'BORN OF WATER' (flesh, terrestrial) that's why their kids were so different. 

THAT'S WHY THEY CAN'T EVER CHANGE THEIR FATE.  


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them ALSO  which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.  (BRING, LEAD, CARRY) 

IF THIS WAS A 'RESURRECTION OF THE LAST DAY' THEN JESUS AND GOD WOULD ALSO BE COMING UP FROM THE EARTH AND NOT DOWN FROM HEAVEN.  
Bring  = coming with you
Lead = going in FRONT OF
Carry = AGAIN, must be with you

QUIT CHANGING GODS WORDS TO FIT YOUR BELIEFS.  DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, SO WHAT.  GOD WILL GIVE TO YOU ON HIS TIME NOT YOURS.  JUST TAKE IT AS FACT AND MOVE ON.  ONCE YOU START DOING THIS THEN YOU CAN MATURE BECAUSE ONLY THEN CAN THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN LEAD. 

UNTIL YOU DO, THEN ALL YOU HAVE IS VANITY.  


Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

WHO IS JOHN TALKING TO?  AN ANGEL. 
WHO DOES THIS ANGEL SAY HE IS?   OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS.  

CAN THIS BE MADE ANY MORE CLEAR???  NOW AN ANGEL OF OUR BRETHREN , THE PROPHETS.  

DON'T UNDERSTAND IT?  DON'T LIKE IT?  DOESN'T FIT?  DOESN'T MATTER.
TAKE IT AS A FACT AND WHEN GOD WANTS YOU TO HAVE IT, HE WILL GIVE IT.  IF YOU KEEP TRYING TO 'MAKE IT FIT' YOU ARE WORSHIPPING YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND NOT THE WORD OF GOD.  IT REALLY IS ALL THAT SIMPLE.  The Holy Spirit can lead and guide you NO WHERE till then.  

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


Would a 'pre trib rapt' be a SIGN?  A wonder?  
PLAIN AND BASIC FACT OF IT IS 

It goes AGAINST how GOD PERFECTS US.  How we mature.  How we are taught.  How we learn.  

If EVEN HE did it HIMSELF, went through this METHOD, why would He allow those who He would just assume spit out of His mouth (IN OTHER WORDS THOSE WHO NEED IT MOST)   SKIP IT???
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
 

1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

1Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

1Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

1Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

1Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, THAT YE SHOULD FOLLOW HIS STEPS.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE PRE TRIB RAPTURE?

1Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

 

WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT being given 'A SIGN'?

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven.

He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.  (BE NOT DECEIVED BY ANY MAN, THERE WILL BE WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS)

And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?  (NATION AGAINST NATION, PESTILENCES..)

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; And there SHALL NO SIGN BE GIVEN UNTO IT,  but the sign of the prophet Jonas,  And he left them, and departed. (BUT SATAN IS COMING WITH LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS)

Matthew 16:5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

WHAT IS THIS LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES? 

A LITTLE TWIST IN GODS WORD.  The place that SATAN works BEST.  A tiny bit of false doctrine will RUIN YOUR ENTIRE LOAF.  

It's a narrow path, not a crooked one.  It is a simple path, not a confusing one.  A little child can understand it BETTER THAN A WISE MAN CAN.  

EVERY TIME WE SEEK TO 'EXPLAIN' FOR OURSELVES WHAT IS WRITTEN, WE LOSE.  


 

John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

SO, CAN'T BE DEAD.  CAN'T BE DEAD IN CHRIST.  CAN'T BE DEAD AT ALL.  THE ONE AND ONLY THING THAT 'DIES' IS THE FLESH THAT IS ATTACHED TO US.  

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I pray the HOLY SPIRIT OPENS our eyes and ears to THE TRUTH OF HIS WORDS.  PRAISE YE THE LORD

The Harvest has not taken place, no saints are taken to heaven yet until Holy Spirit the Restrainer is removed with the church n then the beast is launched with the 1st seal opening.

Edited February 16, 2021 by R. Hartono

[iamlamad]

On 2/12/2021 at 1:19 PM, Revelation Man said:

When you start arguing we are already in the Seals is when I start becoming amused, and not taking you serious brother. I tune out at this point. As I have told you before, I will not even oblige debate on this, it is nonsensical to me that we are already in the Seals, and no matter how many times anyone shows you that via "YOUR UNDERSTANDING" Jesus would have to be a NOWHERE MAN, you just keep goin down that road.

I am not even going to read the rest of it, it would be counter intuitive to do so. In other words its not even a debatable point sir. God bless.

Since we are brothers in Christ and are to love one another, I can only say, once we are there with Christ, we will all be in agreement. Arguing is not good.

[DeighAnn]

On 2/15/2021 at 6:18 PM, R. Hartono said:

The Harvest has not taken place, no saints are taken to heaven yet until Holy Spirit the Restrainer is removed with the church n then the beast is launched with the 1st seal opening.

If only that had anything to do with it, but it doesn't.  

If you are happily willing to disregard all other scripture that makes that statement incorrect,  that is up to you.  
 

[JohnR7]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:44 AM, R. Hartono said:

When will Daniel RISE ?

Quite a few people were resurrected right after the vail in the temple was torn. 

(Matthew 27: 51,52,53) At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

[JohnR7]

On 2/15/2021 at 8:18 PM, R. Hartono said:

no saints are taken to heaven

If they are not in Heaven then where are they? To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. So wherever Jesus is they are. (2 cor 5:8)

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) 

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

If they are not in Heaven then where are they? To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. So wherever Jesus is they are. (2 cor 5:8)

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) 

John, I believe it says, “RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord”.... 

“the dead know nothing”... and there are many more verses (not parables) that tell us we are as asleep until the resurrection / judgement. 

Jesus will indeed return as HE left to take those who have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, Charlie 

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

If only that had anything to do with it, but it doesn't.  

If you are happily willing to disregard all other scripture that makes that statement incorrect,  that is up to you.  
 

EVER CHECK OUT WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT SOME OF THE 'HARVESTS'.  IF I were 'looking to be harvested'  I would REALLY study these verses to find out if that was something I wanted to be a part of or not.  It wont take long until 'the THEME' is made clear.  Just sowing some seeds of truth... 

For those who don't like SCRIPTURE posted, skip this that is all that follows.  


Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here is a HARVEST THAT you want no part in the beginning of as some are gathered one direction (not good),  followed by a good.  

Don't make up your mind till you see the theme. 

2 Samuel 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

2 Samuel 21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.


Be sure to catch the real HOW AND WHY for the joy
Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 9:3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

Isaiah 9:4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

Isaiah 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

Fallen harvest

Isaiah 16:8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, and the vine of Sibmah: the lords of the heathen have broken down the principal plants thereof, they are come even unto Jazer, they wandered through the wilderness: her branches are stretched out, they are gone over the sea.

Isaiah 16:9 Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy summer fruits and for thy harvest is fallen.

Isaiah 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.

Isaiah 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.


Harvest made a heap, in grief

Isaiah 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

Isaiah 17:11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

Isaiah 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!


Harvest left to the fouls
Isaiah 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

Isaiah 18:4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

Isaiah 18:5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.

Isaiah 18:6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

Isaiah 18:7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.

 

Isaiah 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.

Isaiah 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

Isaiah 23:3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

Isaiah 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

Isaiah 23:5 As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.

Isaiah 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.


Starting to NOTICE THE THEME?

Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Jeremiah 5:15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

Jeremiah 5:16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men.

Jeremiah 5:17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword.

Jeremiah 5:18 Nevertheless in those days, saith the LORD, I will not make a full end with you.

Jeremiah 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not your's.

Jeremiah 5:20 Declare this in the house of Jacob, and publish it in Judah, saying,

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Jeremiah 5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?

Jeremiah 5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.


 

Iniquities and sins withhold
Jeremiah 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

Jeremiah 5:25 Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.

Jeremiah 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

Jeremiah 5:27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Jeremiah 5:29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Jeremiah 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 

Harvest past

Jeremiah 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Jeremiah 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

Jeremiah 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Jeremiah 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

Jeremiah 8:14 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.

Jeremiah 8:15 We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!

Jeremiah 8:16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

Jeremiah 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 8:18 When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.

Jeremiah 8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Jeremiah 8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

Jeremiah 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?


HARVEST NOT LOOKING SO GOOD

Jeremiah 50:13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Jeremiah 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD.

Jeremiah 50:15 Shout against her round about: she hath given her hand: her foundations are fallen, her walls are thrown down: for it is the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance upon her; as she hath done, do unto her.

Jeremiah 50:16 Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land.

Jeremiah 50:17 Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

Jeremiah 50:18 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.

 

MORE ABOUT HARVEST

Jeremiah 51:29 And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant.

Jeremiah 51:30 The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.

Jeremiah 51:31 One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, to shew the king of Babylon that his city is taken at one end,

Jeremiah 51:32 And that the passages are stopped, and the reeds they have burned with fire, and the men of war are affrighted.

Jeremiah 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.

Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

Jeremiah 51:35 The violence done to me and to my flesh be upon Babylon, shall the inhabitant of Zion say; and my blood upon the inhabitants of Chaldea, shall Jerusalem say.

Jeremiah 51:36 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will dry up her sea, and make her springs dry.

Jeremiah 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.

Jeremiah 51:38 They shall roar together like lions: they shall yell as lions' whelps.

Jeremiah 51:39 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:40 I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams with he goats.

Jeremiah 51:41 How is Sheshach taken! and how is the praise of the whole earth surprised! how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!

Jeremiah 51:42 The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof.


 

HARVEST

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Hosea 6:8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.

Hosea 6:9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.

Hosea 6:10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.

Hosea 6:11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.

Hosea 7:1 When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.

Hosea 7:2 And they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness: now their own doings have beset them about; they are before my face.


AND THIS ONE

Joel 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Joel 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Joel 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.


MORE ON HARVEST

Amos 4:4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:

Amos 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Amos 4:6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Amos 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

Amos 4:8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Amos 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Amos 4:10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Amos 4:12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.


 

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Matthew 9:38 PRAY YE THEREFORE THE LORD OF THE HARVEST, THAT HE WILL SEND FORTH LABOURERS INTO HIS HARVEST.  


 

Mark 4:24 And He said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Mark 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

Mark 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

Mark 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.


WHEN ?  

WHEN THEN OFFERS ITSELF THE FRUIT, IMMEDIATELY HE SENDS THE SICKLE, BECAUSE THE HARVEST IS COME

WHEN?

Now many will SAY, that is wrong, it is not in context, there is no understanding, it conflagrates??? (what ever that means), but I suggest that there is a truth here.  I myself believe  this truth.  



Being sent into the WORLD
Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

Luke 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.


 

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish His work.

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

John 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;

 

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

WHEN CHRIST RETURNS THIS HARVEST IS GOING INTO THE WINE PRESS AND BLOOD IS COMING OUT OF IT.  CHRIST IS RETURNING TO DESTROY SATAN, AND THE WHOLE WORLD THAT WORSHIPS AFTER HIM (THOSE WITH THE MARK OF THE BEAST) ARE GOING INTO THAT WINEPRESS.  CAUSE THEY ARE DEAD. SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THEY HAVE NOT CHRIST, THEY HAVE BEEN DECEIVED, THEY ARE FOOLISH.  
 

Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

[Mary8]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:44 AM, R. Hartono said:

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....THIS WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

                 

I like the following verses:

Phil. 1:21-23. “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;”

 

2 Cor. 5:6-8. “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”