In HEAVEN, in HEAVENLY BODIES, living with CHRIST, RIGHT NOW

[DeighAnn]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:41 PM, other one said:

I think he brings those abodes with him down here.

Rev 21:2-4
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.  4  He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
ESV
 

Yes, the NEW JERUSALEM comes down, AS A BRIDE, to A NEW (rejuvenated) EARTH. 

ANOTHER Jerusalem.  I guess JERUSALEM is as it always has been, always will be,  no matter 'the time'.  As will be the earth, still the same earth, just in a different garment for a different age, a different time, an eternal time.    

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

A completely NEW AGE.  And there WE will be living, for all eternity in GODS KINGDOM, GOD dwelling WITH US.  Wonder what it is going to be like, Our God fully in charge, this earth, with NO SEA.   God dwelling with us, I just can't wait.  No need for the sun, to wonderful for us to even imagine right now?  OH.    All of us angels or 'like the angels', aka no more flesh and blood, all in spiritual           bodies, the dust of the earth just dust of the earth (maybe no dust!!)


How many hours have you spent pondering on this?  If like me, many many many. 

a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things.
  
Our Father, in heaven, upon His Throne.   Our Father, who created us for His pleasure

AND IN THE MOST ABRUBT U TURN OF ALL TIME sending us down to earth and then leaving us there, to REMAIN dead, until He comes?  And only then do we 'come to - resurrect to life'?  If I went to sleep 6000 years ago and WAS still in the dust of the earth, I would call myself DEAD, not asleep.  
To me that seems a bit...dysfunctional.   What's the purpose?  Create kids just to have them 'sleep' and do nothing else after a minute or two of life?  (Not enough room in heaven maybe?)  

A bit of the story as I 'see' it, I guess. BUT

Why would Jesus tell us about the rich man and Lazarus being in paradise?  Why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross 'today' (please don't tell me He was telling the thief what day it was or I will cry) or tell us He goes to prepare a place, that where He is, we could be also, and we know the way, He is the way, the life, the resurrection, why don't we just accept that?  Aren't we told 'we pass through death to life'?  Is 6000 years passing?  And then,

Why give us a body that is heavenly and then not have us use it to go to heaven?  Does anyone really think that He took Enoch and Elijah to a place where the rest of HIS SONS, can't go or don't get to go?   Some who will be the ones that will be  REIGNing and RULEing for a thousand years with Him, JUDGING THE ANGELS.

WHY,  EVEN after our FLESH, (the PART OF US 'that can't inherit the kingdom of God')  is decaying and rotting away not be setting us free? Why would He have us WAIT?  FOR WHAT?  How could that ever make us more mature, wise, knowledgeable?  How would that further His Plan?  God is into wisdom and knowledge and action.  Makes no sense.

Is it really so far out there,  TO BELIEVE what we read,  as we read it, as it is written?  

Gen 1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form, and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said Let there be light and there was light.

BUT WHAT IF 
it READ MORE LIKE

'GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS'.  (And He created life in those heavens)  

AND THEN created THE EARTH (And that life from the heavens also came to the earth)

AND THEN, there was a problem.  A big problem

THE EARTH became NULL AND VOID?  

After reading  IT A FEW TIMES plus, that is what I believe.   What if the very first time we read the WORD we really get no more than just an outline?  But with every subsequent reading the outline expands?  As the details start filling in,  the knowledge and wisdom starts adding up and the story becomes longer and longer and deeper and deeper.  

Picture this, 

GOD,  and  with him, all the sons of God.  And the morning stars.  The stars are singing, the sons of God are all shouting for JOY. 

WHY?
 
Because the earth is being created right before their very eyes.  What would that have been like?  Sounds like a great time, doesn't it?  When God was laying the measures thereof AND stretching the line upon it.  Watching HIM  fasten the foundations, LAYING THE CORNER STONE, shutting up the sea with doors, when they first brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb.   Watching Him make  the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it.

PROBABLY when God made someone who sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.  And ONCE the earth was completely formed and ready someone who God would later tell us was one who had been in Eden the garden of God 'and every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created'.  Someone God must have loved and  counted on, someone He would tell us was the anointed cherub that covereth,  and He set him so: someone who wast upon the holy mountain of God;  walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.  Someone who God looked on as perfect in his ways from the day he created him 

UNTIL

till iniquity was found in thee.

WHAT did that look like?  What must that have felt like?  

With his heart was lifted up, he said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas, wiser than Daniel,  there is no secret that they can hide from him. 

So what did he do?

With his wisdom and with his understanding he got riches, and gold and silver AND put them into his own treasures.  It was by his great wisdom and by his trafficking  he increased his riches. 

AND how did GOD FEEL about that and what did GOD tell him?

Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God, I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness and they shall bring thee down to the pit,

Did God sum it all up in these two verses?  

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth

Looks like WE HAVE A JOB TO DO.  

It all feels SO REAL, like, it isn't just WRITTEN but like it REALLY HAPPENED

God has given us examples of a new heaven and earth coming in which we live on eternally.  Any problem accepting that as truth?   Ever ask yourself if anything like that has happened before?  HAS GOD possibly given us any examples of anything like that happening before?  I think so.  I mean, we are told, there is nothing new under the sun, what has been shall be.  CAN THAT STATEMENT BE MADE IF IN FACT IT WERE NOT TRUTH IN EVERY WAY?   

WHAT POSSIBILY HAPPENED ONCE GOD FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS BETRAYAL?  
(remember future New Jerusalem, so if someday you read this and can't figure out to WHAT TIME it belongs, you might be led to the past and remember in the past man had not been 'CAST' to the earth yet)
 

Jeremiah 4:1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.  And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.  For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.  Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.  Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.  For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.  And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.  Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.  At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?   For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.  Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.  As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.  Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.

Jeremiah 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

Destruction upon destruction is cried

for the whole land is spoiled

suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

GOD IS SPEAKING OF HIM NOT BEING ABLE TO HOLD HIS PEACE, DESTRUCTION UPON DESTRUCTION, GODS DESTRUCTION AS HIS GUTS ARE TURNING, ALARMS SOUNDING AND IN A MOMENT, 
 

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by HIS FIERCE ANGER. 

(ever ask yourself why God is longsuffering and makes promises to HIMSELF?)

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

WE KNOW THIS CAN'T BE FUTURE.  WE KNOW THERE IS NOTHING MENTIONED OF A FLOOD.  WE KNOW IT WAS SUDDEN, IN A MOMENT.  WE KNOW THE HEAVENS WERE BLACK.  Ever heard anyone say what happens to the earth if it shifts just a few degrees?  HOW COLD AND HOW QUICK WOULD THE EARTH FREEZE OVER IF THE SUN WENT OUT?  LIKE IF YOU WERE A DINASOUR EATING ALONG AND THE NEXT SECOND IT WAS PITCH BLACK.  Probably drop dead with food still in your mouth.  Or another animal giving birth.  We would probably find fossils that would speak to such an event.  CHECK IT OUT.  
 

Jeremiah 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Jeremiah 4:30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Jeremiah 4:31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.




 

 

till iniquity was found in thee

The earth. 

The earth sitting there in darkness. 

The earth, sitting there in darkness,  without form.

The earth, sitting there in darkness,    without form,      and void.

Covered in water  




WISDOM SPEAKING  -  Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
BEFORE THE EARTH WAS MADE  When there were no depths, I was brought forth when there were no fountains abounding with water.  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?  (ALL THE SONS OF GOD)  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

 

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; HE hath established it,

HE CREATED IT NOT IN VAIN, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED. 

I am the LORD; and there is none else.


 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
 

 

Psalms 90  Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.   Before the mountains were brought forth or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

 

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Ezekiel 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

Genesis 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.


Jacob I love, Esau I hated.  Before you were in your mothers womb I KNEW YOU.  Some are preordained and justified.   


Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

[other one]

Well, that is a bit much there, Ann  

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, other one said:

Well, that is a bit much there, Ann  

Then I give the other cheek,  and apologize.  

[other one]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Then I give the other cheek,  and apologize.  

Oh, that wasn't a slap on the cheek, Ann,  just a gentle touch, and I'd be more than happy to touch the other, and no apologizing.   I just wasn't ready for all that...

Ultimately God is going to destroy this world with a fire so hot it will melt the elements...   and we will have a new heaven and a new earth and I assume that New City of Jerusalem.

Wherever it ends up (heaven or earth) we will be with him, or I should say he will dwell with us and I don't think we'll even think about where it is located from that time on...   sooooo, I'm not going to worry about it now.

[DeighAnn]

14 minutes ago, other one said:

Oh, that wasn't a slap on the cheek, Ann,  just a gentle touch, and I'd be more than happy to touch the other, and no apologizing.   I just wasn't ready for all that...

Ultimately God is going to destroy this world with a fire so hot it will melt the elements...   and we will have a new heaven and a new earth and I assume that New City of Jerusalem.

Wherever it ends up (heaven or earth) we will be with him, or I should say he will dwell with us and I don't think we'll even think about where it is located from that time on...   sooooo, I'm not going to worry about it now.

Well One, 
I think I understand where you are coming from  and so would really appreciate your opinion

"What part or parts,  should or could,  be left out? 

I don't know what part(s) aren't necessary. 

Looking forward to your thoughts.

[iamlamad]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:07 AM, DeighAnn said:

 Straight forward and simply GODS WORD 101

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE  no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


HEAVEN.  HE died and rose, as we will, so that HE MAY BRING THEM BACK WITH HIM WHEN HE RETURNS.  (unless we are still alive and remaining unto His return)



 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. 
 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

NO STOPPING THE DEAD FROM RISING

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

There is not now/nor will there ever be any MENTION of any ASCENSION by OUR LORD BACK TO HEAVEN once that trump of God sounds

...
 

Untold millions disagree with you, and for good reason.

Where is Jesus during the days of wrath on earth: Rev. 8 through Rev. 16? Since He returns in chapter 19, it should be obvious that He is in heaven. But also in chapter 19, the church is in heaven WITH HIM. "that where I am, there ye may be also."

How did the church get there? That too should be obvious: Jesus comes and gets us as shown in 1 thes. 4 & 5. And then after raising the church up to Him in the air, as it is written, He will then take us all to the homes He has prepared - as shown in John 14.  

In Summary: if we are to be with Him where He is while wrath is on the earth, then you must be in heaven. Untold millions believe this from these scriptures. I wonder why others don't.

[DeighAnn]

 Faith.  Complete and utter faith that God is in Charge and the 'KEPT'  from His wrath takes nothing more than BELIEF in our Lord Jesus Christ.  His Wrath doesn't fall on those who love Him and obey His commands and have on the whole armor of God.  

Why doesn't it matter that the very scriptures put forth as being about the 'church' clearly isn't?  These books are not written in any vague or obscure way.  The letters to the Thess are some of the first letters put out by Paul, and never does he change his stance.  In FACT, he goes on in the second letter to clear up the matter in very specific words.  So again, here it is and if you just take what is written as TRUTH and don't manipulate it, you will see it has NOTHING to do with the church at all...but those IN HEAVEN IN HEAVENLY BODIES RIGHT NOW.

Parts of the 1st letter written TO the church

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

RECEIVED 'in much affliction'

1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit.

 Put forth as ENSAMPLES

1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

Become SERVANTS

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God

 Delivered from the wrath to come, ALREADY

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

OUR BELIEF in the Lord saves us, that is what is written. 

BEING a Christian comes with affliction and suffering and tribulation

1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

1 Thessalonians 2:3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

GOD TRIES OUR HEARTS

and who does GODS WRATH fall upon?   Not those who suffer for the word, not those who are persecuted, not US, but THEM.  We are told over and over, Gods Wrath will fall upon them and CHRISTIANS will suffer, have persecution, affliction, tribulation etc. It has happened to every generation and the FINAL generation is no exception.  

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us and they please not God, and are contrary to all men

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

What we are APPOINTED TO?

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith

1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
 

Are there TEMPTERs TEMPTing by teaching 

'WE do not or will not SUFFER TRIBULATION' when the WORD OF GOD clearly states over and over we do? 


 'STANDING FAST'  is instructed

1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.


                                  Lord coming WITH ALL HIS SAINTS
(THERE HAS BEEN NOT ONE WORD SPOKEN OF A PRE TRIB CHURCH RAP)

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.


GODS PLAN is for His WORD to abound.  How can that happen if all who KNOW THAT WORD ARE NOT AROUND?  

1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more


1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

AND PAUL NOW APPROACHES 

DYING OR DEATH OF INDIVIDUALS, BRETHREN OF THE CHURCH, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM AND WHEN

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
 

(who is IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW IN HEAVENLY BODIES?  Many of the body of Christ are with the Lord 'in the place He went to prepare for us', BECAUSE the King and the Kingdom were put in abeyance, there was 'no last day' at that time but a New Covenant brought forth, THE GRAVES OPENED)


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Jesus died and rose, Do you believe that? if you do then 'EVEN SO THEM ALSO' you must. 

THESE ARE THE ONLY ONES WE ARE BEING TOLD ARE GOING TO GO BE WITH HIM, AND WHO ARE BEING BROUGHT BACK WITH HIM WHEN HE RETURNS.  Notice how CLEARLY we are told.  There is no MISTAKING what is being said.  

the LIVING DO NOT PREVENT THE 'SLEEP'ING FROM GOING TO BE WITH GOD.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (Christs return) 

shall not prevent them which are asleep (from already going to be with the Lord)

CHRIST IS RETURNING WITH THE SAINTS (Still NO MENTION OF A CHURCH pre trib RAP, JUST THE 'SLEEP'ING)

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Darkness to be destroyed by the Brightness of His coming.  SINCE all who have 'slept' have gone to be with the Lord, (not waiting until Christs return)

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Remember the subject?  WHERE are those who have DIED?  SO THE 'with them' THEM is our brethren whom we shall meet  once we have received our spiritual bodies.  (flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God which is RIGHT now ARRIVING)

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Still no mention of 'a pre trib' anything,  no mention of TRIBULATION at all.  The ONLY ones being addressed BY GODS WORD  HERE

are 'those who sleep'. 
 

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

THE FINAL generation will be HEARING 'Peace and safety' and they will be seeing the destruction COME UPON THEM, THEY will not be escaping. 

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief

Only way FOR THAT DAY TO OVER TAKE YOU, YOU BEING THOSE OF THE CHURCH IS TO BE HERE AND ONLY WAY to be in 'darkness' is if you are believing a lie and not in GODS TRUTH

.1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Christ is coming, AND IT IS DARKNESS, that is how His Brightness destroys .  

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Remember Satan and his angels are kicked out, cast to earth and like in the days of Noah, eating and drinking….

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Know they are coming.  Stay in the light.  Make sure TO have extra oil to keep that lamp burning, darkness is coming upon the earth

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

He gave us the WORD, His SON, and He is our salvation.  (Still NOTHING of a pre trib church rap in anything written here in 1 THESS)

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

WE are ALIVE in CHRIST.  WE LIVE with Him.  We PASS through death and go to be where He is.  

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
 

AND this is why I personally write these big long posts.  For those who are seeking. And this is why lots of scripture, for those who need it, not for those who are 'set'.    And the admonitions about what I don't know and or understand or don't have placed 'proper' in their understanding of the context (the letter of it), how I give too much scripture or how I give to little scripture or how I don't use the correct size letters, or the correct kind of 'love', and all the rest of the things that are done to turn me away from proclaiming the WORDS OF GOD, aren't going to change a thing, I shall keep fighting the good fight I am called to fight and I plan to stand, overcome and endure to the end.  AND HAPPY am I that I do not believe the 'way of most of the world' because the 'prince of this world' has been working a long time and is deceiving, and that only is proving the famine in the end times is for the word of God, or the Truth.  Of course, this is all IMHO.  
 

[DeighAnn]

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

HOW CAN anyone BE SURE what is Gods Truth?  

You will find it written. 


So how has ANY of Thess been about a 'PRE TRIB RAP' with NOT ONE WORD OR mention of the 'church'?  Hopefully THAT will GIVE YOU PAUSE.  If it is only THEM saying it, or explaining it,  then IT ISN'T GOD.  

1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Ever notice that that the 'coming' or 'return' of the Lord is never mentioned as 'plural'?  Never do we find a comparison of what would be two different days, never is there made a contrast of two different days, never does the Lord speak of His returning more than once.  

 He will return as Lord of lords and King of kings on the day of vengeance.  (His 'SAVING' work has been completed.  

(If there were to be a pre trib rap would He return as 'Saviour' again having already finished that work or would it be as Lord of lord and King of kings but not to bring in the kingdom?  Would He be leaving the right hand of the Father when the word tells us He doesn't?  Would it be in the middle of the war going on in heaven before Satan is kicked out?  or even before the war?  How is there NO information on what would be a bigger miracle than the parting of the sea but there is on what 'fish' I can eat and what one I can't?  And how would anyone EVER believe once all the Christians were 'disappeared' that ANYONE claiming to be God would be?)   

1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1 Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I hope this is a simple read and understanding comes from what is written, not what anyone wants it to say.  

The SECOND letter MUST be read to make sure you possess the correct understanding and what I believe is the only reason it was written. 

2  Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure

Does that hint at 'no great tribulation for the church'?  Not to me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

WHY would God after telling us that persecutions and tribulations are a mansifest token, and needed to be counted worthy of the kingdom, for which WE SUFFER, then turn around and say 'Nah, not really, I'll be taking you out of there because it will be 'great'?

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

If God were to 'pre trib rap' HOW WOULD HE THEN recompense?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Taking VENGEANCE.   We know what day that is.  Some will try and take from the 'spirit of the letter' and break it down to JUST 'the letter' saying this is what makes it different, because 'ANGELS' ( and say we are not them so, those who have gone to sleep and are coming back with Him are saints).  DON'T ALLOW yourself to be taken out of the CONTEXT of the whole letter to us by a word.  

Remember, The church has STILL not been shown to have been 'pre trib rap' in 1 Thess, just those who sleep who are of the church.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;

WHO is punished?  THEM

2  Thessalonians 1:10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

All who come with Him, all who are alive and remaining changed, the KINGDOM OF GOD, no longer in abeyance, but come to earth.

2  Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

By the WORK OF FAITH with power.  Not some 'sign' for the world to see.  

2  Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is coming by FAITH.

And this is getting to 1 Thess 4

2  Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be NOT soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Without any manipulation, any explanation and without any question THE COMING OF THE LORD, THE GATHERING TO HIM IS AFTER THE SON OF PERDITION  IS REVEALED.  Again, there has been NO MENTION OF THE CHURCH and a 'pre trib' anything.

That is what it says.  Remember, this is not written 'for the wise', it is written so that little children can understand.  It is not written to those who have access to the original language only for we know it would be put forth in 'translations' as God said.  

And what will 'the son of perdition' do?
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(my opinion - if the whole world is worshipping after him, that means that the whole world is believing him, and that means the 'body of Christ, the temple made without hands, is WHERE HE IS SITTING.  It doesn't have to be a building, it can be in the hearts and minds of those who 'claim' to be Christs but are worshipping another'). 

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

This that the other thing, all I know is there will be a war in heaven and Michael will be kicking him out.  I am not allowing this to say more than that to me.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who lets anything?  God

What happens when the Lord returns and we are gathered?

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

And just to make sure you got it,

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

But if you ALLOW yourself to be DECEIVED

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 'THE WHOLE WORLD BELIEVING SOMETHING IS NOT A GOOD SIGN, IS IT?
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Don't follow after anything YOU CAN NOT FIND WRITTEN.  OR ANYTHING SOMEONE SAYS IS HIDDEN unless you can find it and it says it. 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

HOW ARE WE 'DRAWN' TO GOD?  HOW DOES GOD CALL US?  

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto HE called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and goo d hope through grace,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Don't let some slogan make WORK a four letter word.  THAT is all we can take with us.  

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Don't forget, the mystery of iniquity is and has been working for a long time. Wolves in sheep clothing.  Knowing the letter, never understanding the spirit of the word.  

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

We don't have to be 'in heaven' to be KEPT from evil, we won't be taken to heaven to be KEPT from tribulation, be it 'great' or not.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
2 Thessalonians 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2 Thessalonians 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2 Thessalonians 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.
2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
2 Thessalonians 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
 

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

In HEAVEN, in HEAVENLY BODIES, living with CHRIST, RIGHT NOW

Excuse me, but I don't agree. At this moment, all of those who die in Christ are in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22).

[HAZARD]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:56 PM, Leonardo Von said:

Excuse me, but I don't agree. At this moment, all of those who die in Christ are in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22).

Ephesians 4:    8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

When Jesus rose from the dead He took all those held captive by the devil with Him to Heaven.