Futurism

[Diaste]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:36 PM, Charlie744 said:

Not sure what you are referring to here but I am going to ASSUME you are referring to the mention of a 7 year period in chapter 9?

Yes, this represents the last week in Daniel's 70 week prophecy.... the complete restoration starts and stops after 70 weeks (Jewish restoration), not the restoration of ALL THINGS which will end at His second coming.

 

On 3/24/2021 at 5:36 PM, Charlie744 said:

Doesn't this fit perfectly with the first 69  weeks of the 70? I mentioned many times and if you do not agree, that is fine, but you will / might tell me why you may not agree, but the 69th week represents  those "physical things" that God  told us would be completed ... and they were! Once the 69th week was over, the Messiah would come and He did on the very first day of the 70th week.... completely eliminates the RCC contention or anyone else's "gap" theory.... ridiculous.... The Messiah would / could not come to earth without His people, His Temple, His land, His city ready and complete for His coming.... How could or would He be able to complete all those things prophesied about HIM in the OT Scriptures?  

The gap is because of this:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations" Matt 24

"And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations." Mark 13

 

This has not yet been fully realized. In the major nations, yes; not in every nation. SA has some unreached tribes as of today; not many, but there are some.

So unless you could prove that every nation heard the gospel preached by 70 AD then the gap is because of the above.

 

On 3/24/2021 at 5:36 PM, Charlie744 said:

Everything that had to be completed in the 69 week period had to be ready for the coming Messiah....so He would be able to fulfill those things that would now be designated as "His responsibilities" to be completed / fulfilled AFTER EVERYTHING ELSE WAS READY FOR HIM...This last and final week of Daniel or 7 years would reflect the allotted time He would complete HIS mission and those things identified in Daniel 9:24...If you look at those 6 things from MAN'S VIEWPOINT YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT THEY WERE FULFILLED... BUT FROM THE MESSIAH'S  POINT OF VIEW HE WOULD DO EACH AND EVERYONE OF THEM. .... He did not remove all sins, He removed all sins from us IF WE WOULD BELIEVE IN HIM.... Charlie 

 

The 70 weeks are for the people and the city, not the Messiah, to accomplish the given tasks.

"Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

You really think Jesus had to stop His personal transgressions?  He committed no transgressions from His preexistence to time and creation till eternity future and forever. None. Ever.

[Heleadethme]

Is it possible, that God speaking in spirit can be saying more than one thing with these prophecies at the same time?  Test it and try it on for size, and see if it helps in understanding some of these things, but that is what I believe.   It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth so we need to rely on Him and not just the two dimensional letter of the word.  "One thing He has said, two things I have heard." (Ps.62:11)  We simply will not be able to reconcile everything in God's word with our carnal minds of flesh which can't perceive the things of the spirit.  We need the Lord to give us light.

There are prophecies that seem to be speaking to both Israel and the church at the same time.....applied to Israel they have already been fulfilled (or maybe not even all of them), but some are still waiting to be applied to the church as well.  A principle of "what has been will be again" (Eccl).

The ends of the ages (plural) have come upon the church....the church witnessed the end of the old covenant Jewish age with the destruction of Jerusalem...but is still waiting to witness the end of the times/age of the Gentiles (remember Jesus saying the gospel would be taken away from Israel and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it, ie, the Gentiles...and Paul declaring in Acts that since Israel rejected the gospel he would then turn to the Gentiles). 

That might be helpful in explaining why even though some of these prophecies have indeed already been fulfilled as concerns Israel, we still see loose ends that have not been fulfilled yet, or not entirely, because some of the details are applicable to further fulfillments down the road that haven't happened yet.  

The church is unfortunately following the same pattern as Israel of old (which is the church's ensample)....falling into apostasy as Israel did....so it seems not unreasonable to expect that similar consequences and judgments would befall the mostly Gentile church.  Test this in case it's helpful, though bearing in mind we only know in part.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

The gap is because of this:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations" Matt 24

"And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations." Mark 13

 

This has not yet been fully realized. In the major nations, yes; not in every nation. SA has some unreached tribes as of today; not many, but there are some.

So unless you could prove that every nation heard the gospel preached by 70 AD then the gap is because of the above.

 

 

The 70 weeks are for the people and the city, not the Messiah, to accomplish the given tasks.

"Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

You really think Jesus had to stop His personal transgressions?  He committed no transgressions from His preexistence to time and creation till eternity future and forever. None. Ever.

Diaste, with all due respect, I don't know how you could NOT find the Messiah in chapter 9 and think the purpose of the 70 weeks were designed by God to reveal the "restoration" of the Jews and that God would use this restoration of His people, His land, His buildings and the city and the Temple to bring the Messiah to the earth where He would be the ONE to restore the HOLY Presence back into the Temple - where Jeremiah had hidden the ARK prior to their captivity.

His timing was absolutely perfect.... He arrived at the Jordan to be baptized by John exactly on the first day of the beginning of the 70th week.... And He would fulfill all the 6 requirements of 9:24 before the crucifixion.....

Charlie

[Diaste]

On 3/25/2021 at 6:59 AM, Justin Adams said:

Please read VERY carefully.

My comment: take Rev with a grain of salt. Do not base your life on ANYONES interpretation of this book.

First, the New Testament was written in Greek — and all the original copies were lost. Furthermore, as noted by The Aquila Report, the original copies of the New Testament had no paragraphs or punctuation, which means later translations had to get creative with interpretation. Over time, specific translations (such as the King James version) have become commonly accepted to be accurate — but often, biblical scholars need to go back to the earliest of texts for clarification.

As an example, in the Good News Translation, a passage reads: "This calls for wisdom. Whoever is intelligent can figure out the meaning of the number of the beast, because the number stands for the name of someone. Its number is 666." Why all the differences? Because not only have the original texts been lost, but the texts available have ambiguous translations — especially due to the lack of punctuation, vowels, and context.

In some translations, 666 is the number of a man. In others, it's simply a human number — as opposed to, say, a demon number. And in still others, it "stands for the name of someone," explicitly. But either way, 666 has culturally become synonymous with the mark of the Antichrist.

Surprisingly, this isn't supported by any actual biblical scripture. While the number 666 appears in the Book of Revelation, the Antichrist does not. Per the Catholic Standard, the Antichrist is never mentioned in the Book of Revelation, appearing instead in the Epistles of St. John. And when mentioned in the Epistles, it is noted that there are many Antichrists and that they already walk among us — in this context, it appears that "Antichrist" is being used as a word for heretics or deniers of Christ.

So, how did the Antichrist even come to exist, let alone be connected with the Number of the Beast? In the year 180, Iranaeus published Against Heresies — which combined the concept of an individual Antichrist with the number 666. From then on, the idea of an individual Antichrist who might someday come became a popular interpretation, even though a specific Antichrist is never mentioned in the New Testament texts. Eventually, it was simply accepted as biblical canon. In the same book he said Yeshua was over 50 years old. WOW.

But in reality, there's no evidence that 666 (or the man referred to by the Number of the Beast) has anything to do with the Antichrist. (note THE antichrist or an antichrist??)

Why are there so many wildly different interpretations? It has to do with the way the Book of Revelation was written, which is unique to the New Testament.

There are New Testament scriptures dating back to circa 60 AD, but they're all in fragments. While it's believed that copies of the Bible date back to the time of Jesus, there aren't any full copies until well after. Many copies had to be cobbled together — some were written from memory, and some were incorrectly transcribed.

The Book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible, and it is believed to have been written around 95 AD, per PBS. It's notoriously difficult to decode because it relies heavily upon symbolism — in contrast to the other books. A simple example comes from the name of the book. While it's known as the "Apocalypse of John," this is likely to be another confusing mistranslation: In Greek, the word for "apocalypse" could denote a disclosure.

According to CNN, some believe that the Book of Revelation doesn't even describe a future apocalypse but rather an "apocalypse" that the writer had already personally experienced – the sacking and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And others point out that the Book of Revelation wasn't a singular artifact. There were many such books and apocrypha, but the Book of Revelation was chosen for inclusion into the biblical canon centuries after the books had been written.

That could be a mistake in itself: A scribe could have written down 616 accidentally instead of 666. On the other hand, it could have originally been 616 all along and simply transferred as 666 because that number resonated more and appeared more foreboding. According to Medium, some even believe that 616 and 666 are both parts of a self-referential puzzle, though there's little evidence to that effect.

In the old days, scholars needed to painstakingly transfer copies by hand, which means errors were introduced. Sometimes, those errors were small, and other times, they could be quite significant. So, it's perhaps not surprising that very early versions of the biblical manuscript have been discovered that record the Mark of the Beast as something entirely different – 616 rather than 666.

This leaves scholars with a lot to debate — the number 666 may or may not refer to the Antichrist, it may or may not deal with the apocalypse, and it may, in fact, be an entirely different number altogether.

Read More: https://www.grunge.com/255291/the-history-of-the-number-of-the-beast-explained/?utm_campaign=clip

 

I'm going with the concept a preexistent, eternal God of all power and knowledge can keep a few texts intact over millennia which convey important information necessary to His children. And that no matter the wiles of the enemy.

We will all know soon enough.

 

 

[Charlie744]

Just now, Diaste said:

I'm going with the concept a preexistent, eternal God of all power and knowledge can keep a few texts intact over millennia which convey important information necessary to His children. And that no matter the wiles of the enemy.

We will all know soon enough.

 

 

I understand and agree with you that each one must be comfortable with their own understandings and interpretations....... if there are 100 people discussing a particular subject there are maybe 8o or more different opinions with some overlapping..... 

Best wishes always, Charlie

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I understand and agree with you that each one must be comfortable with their own understandings and interpretations....... if there are 100 people discussing a particular subject there are maybe 8o or more different opinions with some overlapping..... 

Best wishes always, Charlie

My major point is how many will lose faith or be upset when the popularist rapture stuff does not happen. My questions is, are you a faithful believer that trusts in God alone, or do you have a particular eschaton that you adhere to? Or a particular text that is your 'god'? Think about this carefully.

I have seen so many have a particular point of view (POV) that seems to allow them to disparage others readily. I suggest we all examine daily to see if, a) we are of the Faith, and b) that we do not hold some point of dogma as being more important than our neighbor.

I do not care for eschaton dogmas. They all cheat and revise where needed. I would rather people that actually have a pulse arrive at their own ideas and not get their theology from the middle earth (www). Middle earth theology is notorious for spin and a great deal of misinformation. Pulpits are also prone to this dilemma.

[Diaste]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:11 PM, Charlie744 said:

This "prince of the people" refers to Titus, the Roman general who would be used by God as HIS agent to punish the Jews for their rejection of their Messiah. This ULTIMATE punishment would or is the "desolation"... the desolation of everything Jewish - their land, their city, their Temple, their buildings, and of course they themselves would be murdered in the millions and the  rest would be dispersed outside of Israel... complete annihilation.  There rejection of their Messiah and His crucifixion is the "abomination" - the most horrific act or event that would or could ever occur on this earth... can not be equaled....  this "abomination" indeed will and did CAUSE God to "desolate" everything Jewish.

That is unless you refer to Matthew or Mark and the words Jesus said about the A of D.

He said it will stand in the holy place, or where it ought not, and we are to refer to Daniel for the truth and let the Spirit give us understanding. Now how would the idea you refer to above 'stand in the holy place'? 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/25/2021 at 2:38 PM, Charlie744 said:

There is NO GAP  between the 69th and the 70th week.... The Messiah starting His ministry on the first day of the last week (70th week), He fulfilled ALL the things He said He would (9:24) and "in the midst of the week", He was crucified... there, that is the end of Daniel's 70 weeks... everything that must have been fulfilled WAS fulfilled within those 70 weeks....

Why that interpretation when there are others? One tick of the clock past midnight on Dec 31, 2020 is now Jan 1, 2021. That would be AFTER the last day of the last month of the year. So you are saying the only way it's AFTER the 69th week is for there to be 3.5 years of duration? So there is no possible way that the 69th year could elapse and Jesus was cut off at 69 years plus one second? Or one minute or hour? Even a day?

I get that you don't like the gap. How then do you explain the prophesied event surrounding Jesus return that have not yet occurred?

If the Gospel must be preached or published in all nations before the end comes then when did that happen, and it is complete?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Diaste

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

That is unless you refer to Matthew or Mark and the words Jesus said about the A of D.

He said it will stand in the holy place, or where it ought not, and we are to refer to Daniel for the truth and let the Spirit give us understanding. Now how would the idea you refer to above 'stand in the holy place'? 

 

Before you get to Mark and Matthew and also Revelation I suggest you / we / everyone attempt to interpret Daniel by studying Daniel. 

Once we understand Daniel we can see the Messiah in these verses and others, but it is amazing to me that 2.4 Billion Christians do not see the Messiah in Daniel. 

Instead, they are willing to accept some mythical AC figure, a 2,000 year GAP, that this same figure will make a covenant with the Jews (despite God telling us there are no Jews or Greek.... ), that Daniel’s last week excludes all the fulfillment’s in Daniel... on and on.

Look for the purpose in Daniel... to reveal the coming Messiah and what He must do to offer salvation to the world.

Then we can easily see and discuss the Messiah in any and all the NT books.

Charlie

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Why that interpretation when there are others? One tick of the clock past midnight on Dec 31, 2020 is now Jan 1, 2021. That would be AFTER the last day of the last month of the year. So you are saying the only way it's AFTER the 69th week is for there to be 3.5 years of duration? So there is no possible way that the 69th year could elapse and Jesus was cut off at 69 years plus one second? Or one minute or hour? Even a day?

I get that you don't like the gap. How then do you explain the prophesied event surrounding Jesus return that have not yet occurred?

If the Gospel must be preached or published in all nations before the end comes then when did that happen, and it is complete?

Diaste, you are just trying so, so hard to put a gap where there is none... discussing 1 second after the 69th week or whatever theory... 

Here it is: the first 7 weeks came first followed by the next 62 weeks and of course followed by the 70th week.

Did each of the 3 separate periods have gaps in them- of course not. 

Charlie