Futurism

[leah777]

2 minutes ago, SONshine said:

No, Leah.  You said:  “because its just about a bunch of Jesus hating Christ killing Jews so who cares if they died in horrible ways!!! (yes, sarcasm and sadness in tone for that)  There is much anti-Semitism in some churches even now”
 

. . .

John 8:39 "They answered and said unto Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

These claiming to be Jews were not of the lineage of Abraham, rather they played a dominating role in the plotting and murdering of Jesus.

John 8:40 "But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

OK, nope, repeating what you said doesnt help. I will pass on this post subject with you. English can be hard sometimes. I feel we may be talking across one another somehow. Peace to you.

[Marathoner]

58 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Besides being unnecessarily divisive, it can also be a huge distraction from what we need to be occupied with in the here and now.

A Worthy post but I feel this statement sums up the truth of our estate in Jesus Christ simply and succinctly. The breath of His Spirit moves upon these words.

Eschatology accompanied by various iterations of futurism have indeed been a thorn in the side of the faithful for a very long time, serving to divide and pit the brethren against one another. When I discovered the extent of this warfare I was vexed and grieved. Surely someone has to be right and someone must be wrong. But whom?

The Lord heard my petition and answered swiftly; I was not expecting His response. Did His Spirit reveal who is right? Yes, the Lord Himself is rightness. Keep my eyes and heart fixated upon Jesus Christ and wait only upon Him. Whatever it is that's needful of doing, the Lord reveals it and sends me forth. When it's needful for me to know of something, His Spirit is faithful to instruct me of these things.

So when I asked of the Lord, "What is it You would have me do, Lord?", His Spirit revealed a house filled with the needy and said, Feed them. Clothe them. Serve them, for in so doing you carry out the will of your Father in heaven. This is your place, to keep My words and the will of your Father who loves you. Withhold nothing good from any who ask just as I withhold nothing good from you. 

Yes, wherever we are, that is the harvest field.  

Edited April 9, 2021 by Marathoner

[leah777]

1 minute ago, SONshine said:

So sorry, Leah.  I don’t seem to be doing a very good job of explaining.  In a nutshell, it wasn’t the true Jews that killed Jesus.  It was the sons of Cain—Cain being the first murderer.  Did I do better?

Did my sarcasm in my comment not come through. I was being sarcastic about how badly wrong some churches get the history of the Jews, and then use that as a basis for hatred and antisemitism.

I think we understand each other now. I will try to post clearer with my inflections.

[Justin Adams]

9 minutes ago, leah777 said:

OK, nope, repeating what you said doesnt help. I will pass on this post subject with you. English can be hard sometimes. I feel we may be talking across one another somehow. Peace to you.

Here are a few Leah.

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"
 
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

 The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

Martin Luther – 1543

On The Jews and Their Lies

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.

Martin Luther - 1543

Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ

But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…

John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

[leah777]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

Here are a few Leah.

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"
 
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

 The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

Martin Luther – 1543

On The Jews and Their Lies

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.

Martin Luther - 1543

Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ

But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…

John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

as a Jewish person, much of the history and words of 'Christians' has been the breath of my upbringing. My walk to Jesus was hard. Even now, some consider me a traitor and I am not welcome. I try to explain the difference between Christianity and Born Again Christians. Is a work in progress.

[Justin Adams]

Just now, leah777 said:

as a Jewish person, much of the history and words of 'Christians' has been the breath of my upbringing. My walk to Jesus was hard. Even now, some consider me a traitor and I am not welcome. I try to explain the difference between Christianity and Born Again Christians. Is a work in progress.

My heart goes out to you. You tread a difficult path. Blessings.

[Marathoner]

17 minutes ago, SONshine said:

So sorry, Leah.  I don’t seem to be doing a very good job of explaining.  In a nutshell, it wasn’t the true Jews that killed Jesus.  It was the sons of Cain—Cain being the first murderer.  Did I do better?

I haven't heard it couched that way before but it's splendid, sister. We recall the Lord addressing those who served their father (little f) and speaking to them in parables. The ones who plotted and connived to seize the Lord were definitely not Jews.  

[Heleadethme]

50 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I just looked up every single on of those passages that are listed. Not a single one of them states, "everything that can be shaken will be shaken until that which cannot be shaken remains."

Not a single one of them. 

Maybe a person might read them somehow to say that but that is not what they actually state. 

So two things have happened: 1) my question was not actually answered and 2) our conversation is eroding. My question was very specific. And I am very intentional with the question asked. It is the question asked I want answered and while there may be any number of things to discuss I'm not interested in whatever else that might be unless and until I have an answer to the question asked and we have a mutual and collaborative understanding of both the claim made AND the scripture(s) supporting the claim. 

We've just had one exchange of psts and I still don't have an answer to the question asked. I have a claim made without scriptural support AND I now have another claim: "there are quite a lot of scripture on this theme, it's too much to post" ehen in fact 1) I didn't ask about a "theme" and I asked for support of a specific claim made. 

I have no problem with the idea God "shakes" things or "shakes them up," it wasn't just said, "God 'shakes things up' from time to time," nor was it said, "God will shake things up in the last days." You, Heleadethme, made a very specific claim and I'd like to know where you got that claim. 

Do please feel free to amend the original statement given the fact those verses listed don't actually say what was claimed.  Either provide me with the scriptural support for "everything that can be shaken will be shaken until that which cannot be shaken remains," or amend the statement so it is more consistent with scripture.  

 

Why? 

 

Because it is common for folks to speak in euphemisms and highly interpretive figures of speech that mean nothing unless and until they are defined..... and there's no sense in qualifying them if they don't actually have any actual scriptural support. It's a huge problem that occurs frequently in the topic of eschatology. 

 

Take, for example, the first text that was cited: Isaiah 2:1-22. For the sake of space I'm going to quote only the first four verses se everyone can see what is actually stated in the text. 

Isaiah 2:1-4 NAS
"The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.  Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.  And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the Lord." 

Isaiah 2:1-5 KJV
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.  O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD." 

Isaiah 2:1-5 ESV
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.  It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,  and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.  O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the light of the LORD."

So we see that there is absolutely no mention of "shaking." in this text. There's no mention of "shaking" in the entire second chapter of Isaiah. NONE. 

We also see that the Isaiah 2 text explicitly and specifically states whatever is happening is explicitly and specifically happening "in the last days." It isn't happening all the time and it isn't happening "until that which cannot be shaken remains," as was previously claimed.  

We also see the explicitly and specifically states what is happening will explicitly and specifically concern 1) Judah, and 2) Jerusalem. No one else is mentioned. A couple of other places are mentioned (Zion, Jacob, Tarshish, the mountains) elsewhere in the chapter but it does not say, "everything will be shaken." 

 

Now there are many other things I could point out in the passage but three should be enough to prove the point: the text cited does NOT say what was claimed. In fact the only passage cited that mentions anything about "shaking" are the Haggai and Hebrews texts and they are quite specific regarding what is shaken. It does not say everything will be shaken, and it most definitely does not say everything will be shaken until that which cannot be shaken remains.  It appears several liberties are being taken, and taken with many scriptures. 

Was this a mistake? 
Is this matter of unwitting deception?
Is this a matter of willful, knowing deception?
Is this a problem understanding what Isaiah 2 states?
Is this a lack of exegetical application, or skill?  

Do you understand: 1) you made a claim, 2) I asked about it, 3) I was just given scripture that doesn't answer the question, 4) no one made you do that but you, and 5) neither one of us are a fraction of a step further in the conversation?

This budding conversation between you and me is not going to go well if I ask questions about statements in the posts and never get actual answers to my questions. 

 

What is the scriptural support for the claim "everything that can be shaken will be shaken until that which cannot be shaken remains," or not?

If such a thing exists then please post the scripture that actually supports the claim made. 

If not then either say, "There is no such scripture, it's just a theme I believe based on my personal interpretation of various scriptures," OR amend the claim so it actually bears some consistency with actual statements in scripture. I am completely flexible. I'd simply like to know what it is with which I'm working: am I working with something actually stated in God's word, or am I working with a highly eisegetic interpretation of scripture, or maybe something in between?

And if no one has every asked these kinds of questions before then either prepare yourself for that kind of conversation or let me know there's no interest in such inquiries. The opportunity has availed itself for you to articulate a position; an opportunity that might benefit you, me, those reading this exchange. Just because the opportunity has availed itself doesn't mean you have to continue. I am completely okay with you bowing out and not answering my one, single question. 

A claim was made. The claim made was, "Everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only what can't be shaken will remain." That was the claim made. I'll wager a lot of Christians believe that statement. A lot of Christians probably think that way. I see the statement was liked by others.  What is the scriptural support for that claim? Isaiah 2:1-22 does not even remotely say everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only what can't be shaken will remain." It doesn't. Neither do any of the other passage cited. I looked them up. 

 

 

 

Is the scriptural support for the claim "everything that can be shaken will be shaken until that which cannot be shaken remains," or not?

If so then please post the scripture that actually supports the claim made. 

If not then either, say "There is no such scripture, it's just a theme I believe based on my personal interpretation of various scriptures," OR amend the claim so it actually bears some consistency with actual statements in scripture. Or just let me know you're not interest in explaining and discussing the statement.

Can you do one of those four options? 

I understand what you are wanting and seeking to illustrate brother....precision, and that we take care not to play fast and loose with God's word, which I agree on in principle.  These are the scriptures I gave you below and I have highlighted the most pertinent parts, just in case you missed some of that in your reading.  But we need to also see overall that they are prophesying the day of the Lord's wrath, which is future, at the return of Christ.  In a way already fulfilled in 70 AD in a limited way wrath poured out on Jerusalem and Israel associated with the first coming of Christ, but also I believe it was shown to me by the Holy Spirit, that they are referring at the same time to the second coming of Christ when His wrath will be poured out on all the nations that reject Him.  I don't know what you understand about the second coming of Christ and the day of wrath, but please see how the scriptures below strike you, taken together and noting what I've highlighted.

Isa 2:1-22

The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:

Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.

The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

 

Isa 13:1-15

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

 

 

Isa 24:1-23

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.

They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.

Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

Psa 46

[[To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.]] God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;

Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.

God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.

He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

 

Hebrews 12:25-29

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape (His wrath), if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

For our God is a consuming fire.

 

Hag 2:5-7

According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Your closest friendnt]

35 minutes ago, SONshine said:

No, Leah.  You said:  “because its just about a bunch of Jesus hating Christ killing Jews so who cares if they died in horrible ways!!! (yes, sarcasm and sadness in tone for that)  There is much anti-Semitism in some churches even now”
 

. . .

John 8:39 "They answered and said unto Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

These claiming to be Jews were not of the lineage of Abraham, rather they played a dominating role in the plotting and murdering of Jesus.

John 8:40 "But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

The people Jesus Christ talked with they were descendants of Abraham they were from the twelve tribes. 

They were under the Law of Moses, they participated in the celebrations of the Law, they were not Gentiles or Samaritans or from Esau or from Moab.

Those people they planned in secrecy to kill Jesus and they hang around and follow Jesus Christ for their own purposes. 

While they were seen by people as believers in him, and they may have pretended to project them selves as that just as a cover to hide their truth propose. 

Jesus Christ exposed them, at first they denied it, but then they admitted it and gave their reasons why..

Jesus Christ told them by thought to wanting to kill him as they do not believe in him they are in disagreement with Abraham.

And if they died in their unbelief they will find out that they will be not gathered to Abraham because in the mean time Jesus Christ would have died and raised from the dead and Abraham had welcome him and everyone with him and now are in him in Jesus Christ. 

And if they continue and die in their unbelief they will find out that they are cut off from Abraham who is now with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is referring that Abraham was waiting for him and he will welcome him at the time when he will descend to him in the Bossom of Abraham right after the Cross to give them Life. 

And that Abraham will be for there on together with him in their new Heavenly Inheritance. And they won't if they die unbelievers.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Keras]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

And how do you know this? You speak with authority as you know--not that you suspect or guess. This is not wise or proper.

What I said: 

'It will be a terrible punishment by fire, that will punish the ungodly, a massive explosion of the suns surface, which will firstly devastate the Middle East, but also dramatically affect the whole world'.

My post, the first one on page 75, quotes a few of the many Bible prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. That the Lord will send fire is confirmed by Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5, plus Zephaniah 1:1-18 & 3:8, Isaiah 66:15 and Isaiah 30:26 specifies the sun as the source of that fire.  It will be the Sixth Seal event, years before Jesus Returns.

What IS wise and proper, is to read and understand all of what the Prophets tell us. Speculation and guesswork is not needed, the whole story of God's Plan for mankind is there in our Bibles.