Polycarp

[Marathoner]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

So much confusion over one word.

Preterists Kenneth Gentry defines preterism: "The term 'preterism' is based on the Latin preter, which means 'past.' Preterism refers to that understanding of certain eschatological passages which hold that they have already come to fulfillment"

 

Indeed. Three things are a mystery to me, the fourth is an enigma: herding Jello, wrangling cats, telling time, and arguing at length over the meaning of a single word. 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

I've already covered all that and more in this op and many, many others. Simply put (and it is not a simple matter in entirety) the Church took about 400 years to formalize its doctrines BUT there wasn't much diversity about core doctrines. As the early centuries unfolded through much vigorous and prayerful debate those things which were prevailingly believed spoke directly and decisively to the outlier views and the heretical views (which were often one and the same).  Formal Theology, Christology, ecclesiology, soteriology (Arminius and Wesley not withstanding) were all largely seen with one accord and the classis guideline was uniformity in essentials and tolerance with diversity. 

There were exceptions (such as the Schism and the Protestant Reformation) but even then there was little dispute over the essentials of core doctrines.  

That changed with the rise of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism in particular, but the apocalyptic restoration movements in general radically changed and divided the Church. I have documented these changes and these effect numerous times. 

I cannot emphasize that enough. 

This is one of the reasons I remain in a self imposed exile from the perils of such things. At the time I began the quest all that existed was dispensational fantasy and charismatic congregations, at least in my locale. Over time, and not as long as one would think, charisma and dispensation rang hollow. Thank God for that.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, Historic Premillennialism has been around for a long time. It was one of the first formally articulated eschatologies. Augustine was premil before becoming amil and becoming instrumental in persuading the Church to that position. And I take your self-report at face value. I do. The problem is the posts often read Dispensationalist. It looks like you are more dispensationalist than perhaps you know or are aware of.  I don't mean that as a criticism. I and most non-premils here have had a similar experience whereby we realized we were dispensationalist and didn't realize it. It was the realization that led us to other positions. It is very common. I'm sure many of my ilk will bear witness to the common experience and I invite them to do so. 

I think I have mentioned in the past not all things are wrong or incorrect in their entirety. While a world view may cloud,  obscuring a factual and truthful conclusion, the individual within such obscurity may yet reveal a wee gem or two. Because I hold to certain concepts even after many years is not a function of some academic dogma, but that ideas have survived scrutiny over time. 

I think it problematic for doctrines to be wholly discounted merely on the basis of labels. It's certainly manifest the overall conclusion is lacking and the proofs suffer under the weight of objective analysis however, the source material, if it is holy writ, is eternal truth. Many times I have been led to study what has appeared in the writing of several authors no matter the dogmatic stance or under what label they struggle. In that I have found a much different end than what the author intended in several cases, other times it appeared they were accurate.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Historic Premillennialism, for example, does not hold to two different purposes; one for Israel and another for the Church. That is a uniquely Dispensational position and a fundamental (necessarily basic) part of the Dispensational hermeneutic.

The Dispensational Premillennialist intentionally approaches the Bible text with that already-existing position actively using it as the means by which scripture is understood. Historic Premillennialism holds Israel has no further special place in God's plan for creation. If you are Zionist then you're not a Historical Premillennialist. You're views, even if you say you're not a Dispensationalist, are closer to Dispensational Premillennialism than perhaps you know or are aware. 

I agree with the first paragraph. If I remember correctly, and it's been a long time, that concept was the first shock I received when comparing doctrine with truth. The entire foundation of the things I was reading and studying crumbled. The Charismatics and their nonsense soon followed in the same manner.

In the second paragraph 'Israel' has to be clearly defined. The term 'Israel' is used as a label and the concept is mostly misunderstood by many. I don't think you misunderstand, if memory serves, but I'm not sure. 

One of the ideas prevalent is the growth in knowledge and understanding over time. This is both a personal journey and a corporate awareness, the first as the vanguard and the second a grinding resistance to change. As time marches on and events occur painful growth occurs. Why should understanding of eternal truths be any different? Maybe we are being allowed to see with greater clarity.

 

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Any premillennialist who believes they will avoid the tribulation is also not a Historic Premillennialist. Dispensationalists and other rapturists believe the Church will be removed from the planet before the tribulation. It does not matter whether then individual self-describes as non-dispensationalist because what they believe in this case is uniquely dispensationalist. That view didn't exist prior to the 18th century and it wasn't part of any formal eschatology until the 19th century. In other words, premillennialists who believe that belief goes back to the Ante-Nicenes are mistaken. They are misinformed. 

Pretty clear the DPs are incorrect in this, and many other aspects of the end of the age. Not all, but quite a few. What they got right should be celebrated and what is wrong can be tossed aside.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

If memory serves me correctly you and I have spent many posts discussing the relevance of Israel in modern times. 

 

That doesn't happen with Historicism. The Ante-Nicene premillennialism did not consider the then-non-existing Israel relevant. That is a modern view and that view is a modern invention.  

Again that would depend on the scriptural definition of Israel and how the idea is conceived and applied. 

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Many seminarians are taught early Church history but not modern Church history and those going to Dispensationalist seminaries are taught Dispensationalism has early roots when in fact it does not. However, many pastors simply do not know this history and the believe and then teach under the belief what they teach has always been taught. It is not true. 

Then the inherent weakness of the flesh has won. Objective investigation of scripture refutes dispensationalism unequivocally, in that there are dispensations, that this approach t0 seeking truth is vague and unreliable, and the conclusions have no support; pretrib rapture as an outstanding example.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

No worries. I do encourage a re-reading of it every few years because it remains very relevant. 
 

 

 

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. Scripture definitely refutes pretribulationalism. Matthew 24 alone makes it very clear the disciples would be/will be handed over to tribulation. That form of premillennialism is definitively refuted. Undeniably. Inescapably. 

Agreed. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

The verse clearly states the testing was about to come!!!!! How can "precise language" be noted and as those words are treated so imprecisely? When a Christian in the 21st century says, "God's testing is about to come upon us," or "The tribulation is about to come upon us," or "The rapture is about to come upon us," or "The Second is about to come upon us," or "The temple plans are already being made and its building is about to come upon us," do any of those people mean, "God's testing is about to come upon us in 2000 years"?  

This is interesting, this 'time' thing.

Imprecisely you say?  In fact I didn't mention 'time' but you did bring it up so let's look. First I don't think in any way the truth in the text conforms to social norms or modern vernacular. We are hearing from the Eternal God, The Supreme Being, The Everlasting Creator, you really think He was of the mind His words would metamorphize over time in the roiling sea of the mind of man?!  Puh-leaze

So...'mello'.

"

melló: to be about to

Original Word: μέλλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: melló
Phonetic Spelling: (mel'-lo)
Definition: to be about to
Usage: I intend, am about to; I delay, linger.

HELPS Word-studies

3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, "about to happen." 3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer).

When is that 'point of acting'? The term 'mello' is surety, not a time stamp. I get that 'about to' can be construed depending on context but the concept must remain intact not be erased. 

Two other idea modify 'mello'; testing of all the earth, of those who dwell on earth. Since the testing of the all the earth of those who dwell on the earth has not occurred then 'mello' is the surety this will happen, not immediacy.

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

The tribulation is about to come upon world 2000 years from 2021.
The rapture is about to come upon the world 2000 years from 2021.
Jesus return is about to come upon the world 2000 years from 2021.
The temple plans have begun and its being built has come upon the world 2000 years from now. 

You do understand this is not proof? And what does 'about to' mean to the eternal? You say we need to think God-centric. I agree. If that's the case then what is 2000 years to an everlasting Supreme being? A Supreme being that has assured us that no matter how long we are in the grave our lives are saved and our rewards secure?

It's not how we understand prophecy, it's about what our Father has determined what prophecy reveals. 

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

The words don't mean what they mean in the Bible but they mean what they mean when said nowadays. 

I am truly saddened to hear this.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I am truly saddened to hear this.

Me too, D,

The more I think about it, I'm seeing the dots around an alternate version of Darbyism. A secret coming, (70 A. D.) multiple comings (see verse below), and a nebulous era (dispensation) where Satan is bound, yet on the loose etc. What's the difference?

 Heb 9:28- so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Third time? No. Not unless you import the Obi Wan, "from a certain point of view" framework.

[Diaste]

22 minutes ago, Josheb said:

FYI, 

I've read your ten recent posts that quote me. I won't be replying. I won't be replying because most of the content has already been addressed, some of it digresses far afield of the op, some of it is unnecessarily snarky rhetoric, and much of it has been discussed in prior ops so it looks like outstanding concerns from other conversations are being brought into this one and mucking up kingdombrat's op with some unstated personal agenda. Altogether it wastes my time and yours. Not only am I not inclined to respond to content already addressed and unnecessarily repeat myself, but I do not have any confidence a single word I would now post would be treated seriously since everything I have already posts in this op has been disrespected by either its neglect or the current rhetoric. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I suspect this is, in part, due to having arrived 20 pages into the op so I understand but it is still no excuse. If answers and explanations are truly, genuinely, sincerely wanted then read my posts and think about their significance. Ask or comment topically about something not already addressed. Or don't. You choose.

Just so you know. 

Always scrambling for the moral and ethical high ground while taking parting shots.

smh

[Justin Adams]

13 minutes ago, Josheb said:

(and it should read "partial-preterist Kenneth Gentry...." so as not to give the impression he is full-pret and confuse those who think all prets are all full-prets when most are not)

Certainly correct. I find the naysayers clump a couple of 'ideas' alongside each other in one sentence. Misuse of language and the all encompassing inclusive mindset that two things must be coherent and rational when only one is. I think this indicates poor communication and a poor grasp of the language.

Such as, "Oh so you see the Second Coming has already happened because you are a preterist". Nonsense statements like that dilute true conversation and it becomes a sitcom banter. Somewhat like, "do you still beat your wife..?" 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

Just now, Josheb said:

Have you anything op-relevant to ask or state that hasn't already been covered? If so then post it. If not then we're done. Not complicated.

Oy!

 

 

 

[Diaste]

52 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Me too, D,

The more I think about it, I'm seeing the dots around an alternate version of Darbyism. A secret coming, (70 A. D.) multiple comings (see verse below), and a nebulous era (dispensation) where Satan is bound, yet on the loose etc. What's the difference?

 Heb 9:28- so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Third time? No. Not unless you import the Obi Wan, "from a certain point of view" framework.

I agree.

[Alive]

Interesting: I just happen to be looking at Schaff's Church History a moment ago and up popped this bit that I had highlighted some time ago. I can't recall when, so it must have been long time. Anyway, this was written back around 1874.

But as Jesus Christ thus closes all previous history, so, on the other hand, he begins an endless future. He is the author of a new creation, the second Adam, the father of regenerate humanity, the head of the church, “which is his body, the fulness of him, that filleth all in all.” He is the pure fountain of that stream of light and life, which has since flowed unbroken through nations and ages, and will continue to flow, till the earth shall be full of his praise, and every tongue shall confess that he is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. The universal diffusion and absolute dominion of the spirit and life of Christ will be also the completion of the human race, the end of history, and the beginning of a glorious eternity.

 

It is the great and difficult task of the biographer of Jesus to show how he, by external and internal development, under the conditions of a particular people, age, and country, came to be in fact what he was in idea and destination, and what he will continue to be for the faith of Christendom, the God-Man and Saviour of the world. Being divine from eternity, he could not become God; but as man he was subject to the laws of human life and gradual growth. “He advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”⁹⁶ Though he was the Son of God, “yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.”⁹⁷ There is no conflict between the historical Jesus of Nazareth and the ideal Christ of faith. The full understanding of his truly human life, by its very perfection and elevation above all other men before and after him, will necessarily lead to an admission of his own testimony concerning his divinity.

 

[DeighAnn]

What I believe will happen when the Lord Returns as King of kings and Lord of lords and the Lords Day/millennium begins (AKA the return of Christ, the coming of the Lord, the Lords Day, the 2nd Advent etc)

AND WHAT DIDN'T TAKE PLACE IN 70AD

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.

In 70 AD The Lord did not MAKE WAR

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

NO ARMIES FROM HEAVEN ARRIVED UPON THE EARTH

And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

THE NATIONS WERE NOT SMITED
NO RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON WAS BEGUN

And He hath on his vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

NO EARTHLY ARMIES WERE GATHERED TOGETHER TO MAKE WAR AGAINST HIM

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

NO ANGEL WAS SEEN COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

SATAN WAS NOT CAST INTO A BOTTOMLESS PIT
SATAN DID NOT QUIT DECEIVING THE NATIONS FOR 1000 YEARS
SATAN WAS NOT RELEASED FROM A PIT IN THE YEAR 1070
 

 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

THERE WERE NO THRONES SET AND NO NEW GOVERNMENT OF JUDGMENT GIVEN

THERE WERE NO SOULS REIGNING WITH CHRIST FOR 1000 YEARS
 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

THERE WAS NO DEAD WHO CAME TO LIFE AFTER THAT 1000 YEARS.

 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


I'LL JUST HIGHLIGHT OTHER THINGS THAT DIDN'T TAKE PLACE THAT I FIND TO BE SIGNIFICANT. 
 

 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the MOUNT OF OLIVES SHALL CLEAVE IN THE MIDST THEREOF  toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

 

 

 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and SET THEM in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;