Polycarp

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

God hath said to the first century believers, "NOW.....".

God hath said Satan would be bound 1000 years.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

You were asked about the subject of the vision, the kindreds of the Earth that see Him.

Shalom, Uriah.

The word for "earth" in Greek is "gee," spelled gamma-eta, and pronounced as "gay." It CAN mean "earth" or "dirt" or "land." It's the Greek word used to translate the Hebrew word "erets," which is most commonly used for "erets Yisra'eel," the "Land of Israel." The "kindreds of the earth" could simply be the "families of the Land."

Again, sometimes the take on certain passages of Scripture is just too NEBULOUS! Too GENERAL! Too GLOBAL!

There's a passage of Scripture that fits with this translation into the Greek:

Zechariah 12:6-14 (KJV)

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, AND THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM, AS ONE MOURNETH FOR HIS ONLY SON, AND SHALL BE IN BITTERNESS FOR HIM, AS ONE THAT IS IN BITTERNESS FOR HIS FIRSTBORN. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And THE LAND (Hebrew: ERETS) SHALL MOURN, EVERY FAMILY APART; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 ALL THE FAMILIES THAT REMAIN, EVERY FAMILY APART, AND THEIR WIVES APART.

It's important to understand WHY they are mourning the Messiah: These are the LINEAGE of the Messiah! Look at the names: David, Nathan, Levi, and the Shimei! These are all listed in the genealogy of the Messiah in Luke 3!

Luke 3:23-38 (KJV)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Heli, 
24 Which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi,
which was the son of Melchi,
which was the sonof Janna,
which was the son of Joseph, 
25 Which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Amos,
which was the son of Naum,
which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge, 
26 Which was the son of Maath,
which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of SEMEI,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Juda, 
27 Which was the son of Joanna,
which was the son of Rhesa,
which was the son of Zorobabel,
which was the son of Salathiel,
which was the sonof Neri, 
28 Which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Addi,
which was the son of Cosam,
which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er, 
29 Which was the son of Jose,
which was the son of Eliezer,
which was the son of Jorim,
which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of LEVI, 
30 Which was the son of Simeon,
which was the son of Juda,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim, 
31 Which was the son of Melea,
which was the son of Menan,
which was the son of Mattatha,
which was the son of NATHAN,
which was the son of DAVID, 
32 Which was the son of Jesse,
which was the son of Obed,
which was the son of Booz,
which was the son of Salmon,
which was the son of Naasson, 
33 Which was the son of Aminadab,
which was the son of Aram,
which was the son of Esrom,
which was the son of Phares,
which was the son of Juda, 
34 Which was the son of Jacob (Israel),
which was the son of Isaac,
which was the son of Abraham,
which was the son of Thara,
which was the son of Nachor, 
35 Which was the son of Saruch,
which was the son of Ragau,
which was the son of Phalec,
which was the son of Heber (source of the word "Hebrew"),
which was the son of Sala, 
36 Which was the son of Cainan,
which was the son of Arphaxad,
which was the son of Sem,
which was the son of Noe,
which was the son of Lamech, 
37 Which was the son of Mathusala,
which was the son of Enoch,
which was the son of Jared,
which was the son of Maleleel,
which was the son of Cainan, 
38 Which was the son of Enos,
which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam,
which was the son of God.

See, this will take place after the Resurrection! These families will be ALIVE AGAIN! "THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM (the Messiah), AS ONE MOURNETH FOR HIS ONLY SON," because if they only had one son, He will be their descendant THROUGH their only son! "AND SHALL BE IN BITTERNESS FOR HIM, AS ONE THAT IS IN BITTERNESS FOR HIS FIRSTBORN," because if they had more than one son, He (the Messiah) will be their descendant THROUGH their "firstborn son," the heir of their estate!

[Guest clancy]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, clancy.

One may use logic even if they don't understand it.

1. If it is raining outside, I will take an umbrella.
2. Today, it's raining outside.

Therefore, ...? I will taken an umbrella!

That's simple logic.

With the same premise, we can also note,

2. I didn't take an umbrella today.

Therefore, it wasn't raining outside.

This is how logic works. It's not complicated until we MAKE it complicated, and this isn't foreign to anyone. Not really. It's how we operate from day to day. The rules of logic transcend cultures because we just need to change languages, and the logic works the same. Perhaps the premises will be different for the different cultures and different parts of the earth, but it's the STRUCTURE of the reasoning that remains the same for all.

God operates on the SAME LOGIC and does so better and more consistently than men and women can do. HIS logic is infallible.

Thank you for explaining brother.

 

AMEN!!!....to your last sentence....Praise God!!.......

[Heleadethme]

22 hours ago, Alive said:

I disagree--logic is our friend and ally and much more. Doing a full study of the the 'Word' translated as such from Logos in John 1:1 shows that Jesus Christ is among other things the logical reason and expression of all things.

We are made both in His image and as those that 'image' Him.

Logic is our friend and a real part of the fabric of who we are--ontologically.

Logic is part of our being.

Having said this, we are imperfect imagers, can be perfectly logical and perfectly wrong.

:-)

1Co 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:23

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:25

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Rom 8:7-8

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[Guest kingdombrat]

2 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

1Co 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:23

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:25

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Rom 8:7-8

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

When I read these Scripture References, I am brought to attention of how we can use our own logic to interpret Scripture.   I remember the first time [reading the entire Bible second time around] I read the same passage and suddenly it read differently.   I remember grabbing the notes I took the first time reading through the Bible and comparing the notes pertaining to the Passage of Scripture I just read.   They were different and more profound in meaning the second time around.   

 

By the time I had read the Bible cover to cover around the 7th time, everything I believed the first go around mostly all had new meaning.

 

What I discovered, the first go around was my own LOGIC, after that, the Holy Spirit enlightened me.

 

So indeed, our own LOGIC can cloud interpretation!

[Heleadethme]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Yeah, I know.....it's foolishness isn't it?

Luk 10:21

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Revelation (understanding) doesn't come from the carnal mind but through the Spirit of God.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

50 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I think the concept of revelation should stop being abused. Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Nor was he speaking about you or me. The carnal mind likes to make things said to others about us. At its best it is built on a failure to understand the difference between revelation and illumination. At its worst it is idolatrous narcissism of the flesh. The former is common enough we've all observed it and the latter so extreme those possessing it imagine themselves unique. 

 

Jesus words were completely logical. Logic does not deny God's power and is therefore our friend. It may not be the friend of the unregenerate but it is our friend. Conflating and confusing "learned" with "logical" is illogical and unlearned. It is foolishness. 

 

 

It's a principle that we can all learn from, regardless of who Jesus was physically literally addressing in that moment of time......written down through the inspiration of God, for OUR instruction, correction and admonition.

The regenerate do have the mind of Christ, but the problem is the regenerate believer can still be walking in the flesh and relying on the carnal mind.  Just as all who are born again were given faith not of our own, but in spite of that, many of us  still walk by sight not by faith.  But I consider these are things we grow and increase in over time, IF we will....learning to rely on the Lord more and more.  (Probably these things can be considered to be part of the 'meat' of the word, and not typically taught and preached in churches that I know of.)

I find it concerning, that much is being made of things like logic and exegesis and those who are doing this don't even seem to agree in principle with the idea of the carnal mind being enmity with God and not being able to discern the things of the spirit, etc. 

Maybe not everyone has really considered those scriptures before, the ones that address these things...we're all finite beings, the bible is so full and deep, and different people generally have different areas that they have focused on  ....different parts of the body of Christ.  All I know is the bible doesn't preach/teach logic and exegesis brother, but it does have lots to say that kind of puts the brakes on relying on ourselves ("the flesh profits nothing" is another).  Really when you think about it why does it seem some are extolling and preaching/teaching things the bible just doesn't?

Here are some scriptures where the bible teaches us how to learn truth (ones that i know of, there may be more):

1Co 3:18

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. (ie, realize and acknowledge our insufficiency in ourselves)

Jas 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.  (rely on God, not on ourselves)

Pro 23:23

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.(paying the price to follow Jesus)

Jos 1:8

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psa 1:1-2

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Who was it that literally, not figuratively, pierced Jesus?

I think I can help with this....the scripture itself tells us who God is talking about (and it makes sense too because Jesus is a son of the Jews, having been born of them):

Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

It is a lovely passage.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you understand if we take that literally the all that we are discussing happened in the first century? 

When did the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem look upon the one who they pierced?

This saying it is applicable to those who repented on the day of Penticost. 

A little while ago they had condemned Jesus Christ to die on the Cross, that includes the manner of his death which was not done by the usual way of stoning, or by throwing or driving someone by the edge of a gorge and forcing him to jump to his death.

It was foretold that this will happen when the Land was occupied by a foreign force whose way of execution was one that resemble what happened to Jesus Christ. 

That also suggests that they will condemned him but they will not be the ones to carry on the execution. 

The same people who shouted crucified him, crucified him, are the same people who at the preaching of the Gospel on the day of Penticost they repented and they looked upon Jesus as the Christ of God and believed. 

They repented and their hearts were deeply troubled when they realized what they had done.

The scripture does not demand that everyone of them who condemn Jesus Christ has to believe for it to come to pass. And they were others after them.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, I was. However the question was not clear. I get it now. I am being asked if is possible to interpret Rev. 1:6 and 6:17 as people within John's vision having their own vision and thereby having God/Christ revealed to them. Yes? If so, I suppose that could be a viable interpretation but it would not be mine. 

Actually you were asked how the people of Earth will see Jesus as stated. (A simultaneous vision, many televisions etc.) You changed my question to  only one part of the verse.

How then will all see him? 

YES!!! Please answer this