Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

24 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi OC,

Who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants (doulos) what must happen very soon” (Rev 1:1). The term used is “servants” (doulos). It will be the servants within the professing church who will endure persecution for their faith. The message is for them: Revelation 22:6 says, “Then the angel said to me, ‘These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon’” (Rev 22:6). It is the servants/true believers/saints/the elect of God/those who hold to the testimony of Christ who will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

The word “church” is also absent from Revelation chapters 19–20. Will the church not participate in rejoicing in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Moreover, the Bride of Christ is found in Revelation 19:7 but the word “church” is never mentioned. Is the Bride then not the church? 

The word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4.  Are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not! Further, by that reasoning, since the word “Israel” is not mentioned between Revelation 7:4 and 21:12, it must be raptured before Rev 7:4!

The word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? It is patently misguided to demand that the New Testament writers must only use the term “church” to discern if a passage applies to the church.

 

The point was that “after these” (meta houtos) of Revelation 4:1 matches the outline established by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19 since the Ekklesia / Church is not mentioned again in Revelation till the final salutations.

while everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is “for” the church,  not all of it is “about” the Ekklesia / Church.  
 

As so aptly outlined in a Doctrinal dissertation by Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology), Israel is the focus of 5/6ths of the Bible.  The Prophets and the Revelation after Chapter 3 centers on Israel and this climatic end time that is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” by Jeremiah.  
 

All redeemed are done so thru the redemption of Messiah, but not all redeemed are Ekklesia / Church.  That unique body of redeemed that constitutes the Body of Messiah.  Job is redeemed, but is not of the Body of Messiah.  Yeshua said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, but of all those that came before him, there is none greater than John.  That would include Abraham, Moses, and David.  It is not a redemption issue, it is a positional classification issue.

And nowhere in scripture does it place those who become redeemed during the unique end time tribulation period as part of that unique Body of Messiah.  Even the judgement of the nations in Joel 3 and Matthew 25 does not equate those declared righteous as being part of the Body of Messiah as the Ekklesia / Church is.  
 

So, it is more of a ecclesiology issue than a eschatological issue.   

 

[Alive]

16 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The point was that “after these” (meta houtos) of Revelation 4:1 matches the outline established by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19 since the Ekklesia / Church is not mentioned again in Revelation till the final salutations.

while everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is “for” the church,  not all of it is “about” the Ekklesia / Church.  
 

As so aptly outlined in a Doctrinal dissertation by Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology), Israel is the focus of 5/6ths of the Bible.  The Prophets and the Revelation after Chapter 3 centers on Israel and this climatic end time that is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” by Jeremiah.  
 

All redeemed are done so thru the redemption of Messiah, but not all redeemed are Ekklesia / Church.  That unique body of redeemed that constitutes the Body of Messiah.  Job is redeemed, but is not of the Body of Messiah.  Yeshua said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, but of all those that came before him, there is none greater than John.  That would include Abraham, Moses, and David.  It is not a redemption issue, it is a positional classification issue.

And nowhere in scripture does it place those who become redeemed during the unique end time tribulation period as part of that unique Body of Messiah.  Even the judgement of the nations in Joel 3 and Matthew 25 does not equate those declared righteous as being part of the Body of Messiah as the Ekklesia / Church is.  
 

So, it is more of a ecclesiology issue than a eschatological issue.   

 

Are you simply drawing a distinction between the church age saints (from Pentecost to the taking away) and those prior to the cross and those after the rapture during the balance of the 7 years? Or are you saying they aren't/won't be 'in CHrist'?

[Behold]

23 hours ago, Alive said:

OK--you have gone into several things here in this last post. I understand.

To the substance of what occurred in the few exchanges prior--we were discussing the activity or lack of activity of the Holy Spirit during the Trib and the MA.

Perhaps its more accurate to say the degree of activity of the Holy Spirit during that time.

It is to those particular assertions you made regarding this-- that I responded to, which when reading you perceived as insulting. That was far from what was in my heart, nor what was obvious in the words typed.

It was up until that moment (the accusation of my being insulting), that I thought we were having good and thoughtful conversation.

I agree that much of this is rabbit hole terrain. Just as I have opined in a few threads. However, I have become interested of late, in what my various brothers have to say on the matter and have endeavored to be faithful to an openness to hear each point of view. The act of opining that a point of view may not be so, is not the act of indicting a brother to be in error.

I consider myself and rightly so, to be a novice learner on these things. However, that does not mean that I am not able to think and respond.

I remain interested

 

Its a good thing to think about bible stuff, especially if its related to the New Testament, and its  the best thing to want to learn all you can about it..

You should.

All Christians should be "ever learning",  as the riches of God are infinitely deep.

"study to show yourself approved unto God", is not so that He will save you if you study hard and live right........of course not.........but you study to show that you mean business and are a truly dedicated lifelong disciple of His Son, and when you do that, when you set your mind to BE THAT.....and you dont STOP......then you put in the study time with Paul, and that New Testament in general, and Prayer, and Praise.......When you do that....God will give you extra "handfuls on purpose" BECAUSE you have earned it down here.

God rewards Faith with Eternal Life, and He rewards CORRECT EFFORT with "handfuls on purpose".

-------------------------------

Some scriptures amaze me no matter how many times i've read them or think about them.. One is John 1:10, where it says that Jesus stood on the world He created.  Now i think most versions teach this as "He was in the world He created", but i like to teach it as Jesus STANDING IN BARE FEET ON the world He created .   And isn't that amazing?   Here is God, barefoot, standing on His creation.    "All things were created by Him (Jesus)".....Colossians 1:16....  So that is the "word made Flesh", before He was Incarnated..........He created it  ALL from Heaven, then later stood on it as the LIVING Bread who came down from heaven.   So that is just SO WONDERFUL TO THINK ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME... AND its always amazing.....always......to know this happened.......It REALLY Happened.    God became ONE OF US< and stood barefooted on His WORLD, and later died on a Cross that had him nailed to a tree hanging between earth and sky, and Jesus created them BOTH.....   He created the TREE that He died on.... He created the iron ore that produced the Nails that hung Him on that TREE.    The thorns that bled red our Saviors's head......He created them.   The Roman soldier who stabbed Him with the spear, is himself a product of Original ADAM, and Jesus was right there when Adam was FIRST formed from Dirt into a body....  When you look at nature, sea, and sky, you are looking at GOD the ARTIST who created it all, painted it all, and gave life to it all...  ADMIRE  God's ARTWORK everytime you see a sunset, or a snowfall, or hear a baby's laughter.   God is in it all.... It all came from His imagination and exits because of his POWER !!

So, all this amazes me, and I thank GOD for doing all this.... 

There was a time when i was first called to share God's words, and so, i was sent to a Christian  Radio Station to work there for about 2 yrs.   And even the way i ended up there is another one of those "providence" things that happen to me....... And it was the beginning of my years of "spiritual boot camp" where i was constantly inundated by the preaching and teaching offered by a handful of great men of God.  I have been so fortunate to have learned from many sources, different denominations, and God allowed me to understand how to keep what was truth they taught and if it was just "man made", i was able to use it, while it could  not fool me or create me to be a heretic..

So, anyway........all that is a digress................

--------------------

Listen, its one thing to say that what im explaining is "suspect", but its another to actually prove it. ...or even try.....

So, if you ask a teacher to teach, and you dont agree with their teaching, that is fine.      If you ask a teacher to teach and you have your own theology that you want to rub against theirs, then that is fine.

Often enlightenment comes because of this very type of "back and forth", discussion.

But when you only want to hear the teaching,  and then you respond....>"thats suspect", but you offer no proof or even an attempt to explain why you think its "suspect", then that is not fine.

Its like saying .. ."well, i dont really know anything about this, and i want to know more, but after i heard you, i think i'll just say its all "suspect".......as thats my theological response.""

That does not work out very well ...., yet, its never a bad idea to invest time trying to find out if the teacher is a heretic, or just a pretender, or worse, a carnal fool.      I invite you to investigate me......and not just you......everyone here..

I can stand up to the inspection, as i know where my Truth comes from... and when there is a discussion that is related to really deep biblical water and there is no certain firm theological foundation, then i will always say....>"here is what i think......for you to think about"......as the bible, the NT< has a lot of really deep water that noone is able to totally penetrate and reveal, perfectly.

Listen, Peter had difficulty with Paul's theology, and says so in 2nd Peter.   And that is because Peter is a fisherman, not an intellect, and Paul was a highly trained intellect.   So Peter says that some of the things Paul said are "hard to understand", and that is for certain. and that is why you STUDY the word and find a good Teacher....

And when it comes to Grace, then i'll be the first one to try to teach it here, if i can be the first....., or help someone discover the beauty and depth of it...., as i have a long experience with it.  

 But as i said... you should be suspecting everything an unfamiliar  teacher teaches, and not just their eschatology type teaching.    And once you come to discern that someone is telling the truth, then you can know they are real and listen.

I come here, i pin people down who are stuck in the mire of really bad theology, i make them think about what im teaching, ....i push and push, and then i let Light have its way.   I can put truth in your head, but God has to reveal it to your spiritual heart as light.   I plant seeds, and God is the WATER, just like Jesus is THE Truth and THE Way.

And how do you recognize a heretic?  Thats easy, you just find out what they are doing WRONG with the Cross.  As all heretics, will mess with the Cross.   IN other words they will lower it to their standards, and want to talk about works, and obedience, and lifestyle, IN PLACE OF REDEMPTION.  IN PLACE OF CHRIST'S ATONEMENT.  In place OF THE CROSS....  And generally, they'll rant endlessly about anything and everything else, other then the Blood of Jesus, even when they are trying to con you into thinking that they agree with you about "grace".  And if you really want to pin them to the mat, then just ask them to try to go into deep detail about "Grace" and "justification by faith", and "the gift of salvation", and WHY every born again believer is a "join heir with Christ" and an "Heir of God".   And  then ask them to explain this verse.  "as Jesus IS.... so are WE on this earth", if you want to see them  dive into their theological ditch.

Heretics really can't deal with the Grace of God..   and that is why they are always trying to SUBSTITUTE the Cross and Jesus's blood with all their talk about losing your salvation, because you didnt ...do.....do.....do......do, whatever it is that comprises their list that they say will keep you saved, or cause you to lose your eternal life in Christ if you dont do what is on their list...  And they have no qualms about using half a verse, but not the other half, or misquoting it, etc, etc.

Heretics and their To DO  list.    They have one every time.  And that is because its THEIR Salvation.

But it not God's. ....

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Behold

[Alive]

Behold, my brother. I didn't invite you to be my teacher.

I have engaged you as one brother to another.

Suffice it to say, rather than my laying out my testimony here, that I perceive what the Lord has taught me and what the Lord has taught you regarding the work of Christ is alike. I have not read anything that you have written regarding the teaching of Paul that I disagree with.

I will continue to keep an eye on you.

End time stuff is a whole nutha ball of wax...good luck with that.

:-)

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Are you simply drawing a distinction between the church age saints (from Pentecost to the taking away) and those prior to the cross and those after the rapture during the balance of the 7 years? Or are you saying they aren't/won't be 'in CHrist'?

Only a distinction.  

[Alive]

44 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Only a distinction.  

Thanks OLd Coot from an Old Codger

:-)

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The point was that “after these” (meta houtos) of Revelation 4:1 matches the outline established by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19 since the Ekklesia / Church is not mentioned again in Revelation till the final salutations.

while everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is “for” the church,  not all of it is “about” the Ekklesia / Church.  
 

As so aptly outlined in a Doctrinal dissertation by Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology), Israel is the focus of 5/6ths of the Bible.  The Prophets and the Revelation after Chapter 3 centers on Israel and this climatic end time that is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” by Jeremiah.  
 

All redeemed are done so thru the redemption of Messiah, but not all redeemed are Ekklesia / Church.  That unique body of redeemed that constitutes the Body of Messiah.  Job is redeemed, but is not of the Body of Messiah.  Yeshua said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, but of all those that came before him, there is none greater than John.  That would include Abraham, Moses, and David.  It is not a redemption issue, it is a positional classification issue.

And nowhere in scripture does it place those who become redeemed during the unique end time tribulation period as part of that unique Body of Messiah.  Even the judgement of the nations in Joel 3 and Matthew 25 does not equate those declared righteous as being part of the Body of Messiah as the Ekklesia / Church is.  
 

So, it is more of a ecclesiology issue than a eschatological issue.   

 

Hi OC,

Whatever issue you think it is.............it is an issue!

It's an issue with the pre-trib view. Even when shown that the church is found all through Revelation, pre-trib still holds to that mantra. Sure, the actual word 'church' is not mentioned, but............

Revelation does refer to Christians in chapters 4-19. It uses the terms “bond-servants” and “saints” to refer to those who have saving faith in Jesus. “Saints” is used 13 times and “bond-servants” is used 10 times. These terms are used before, during, and after chapters 4-19.  There is one point in the scope of Revelation, however, where these terms aren’t found. That is during the trumpet and bowl judgments, consistent with a prewrath rapture. 

 

In Revelation, the Greek word ekklesia is never used to refer to “the” church, the church universal. In Rev. , this word always refers to the the Seven Churches, either individually or as a group of seven churches.  John wrote Revelation for these specific seven churches and sent it to them.  He refers to them by name, for example:  “The Church in Thyatira,” or refers to them as a group, “send it to the seven churches.”

If the word ekklesia doesn’t refer to the world-wide church in Revelation, it is deceptive to apply this meaning to its absence later in the book!

[OldCoot]

What is being revealed in many of the manuscripts finally being disclosed and translated from the Qumran discoveries (Dead Sea Scrolls) is that the Essenes of that community also seem to hold to many NT Christians concepts, including a pre time of Jacob's trouble gathering of the righteous.  More ancient pre-Yeshua scrolls are coming to light that also imply a pre-tribulational view of a gathering/rapture.  Including one that is estimated to have been originally written around 1000 BC around the time of King David.   The terminology is a little different in some of these scrolls for sure, but it is interesting that since the Essene scrolls are circa 100-150 BC and definitely have the old Hebrew style script, they were not influenced by any early church writers thoughts on the matter.  Even Darby was not involved.  

It is not proof positive of a  pre-trib position, but it does shed light that even before Yeshua the idea was well known and written about.  It really shoots down the idea that it is a recent invention or it is so far out in left field that it qualifies as a hallucination.  And given the other writings of the Essenes and their view of the coming Messiah and other doctrine, I feel real good about being aligned with them.  There is quite a bit of reasoned speculation that John the Baptist hung out with these Essenes frequently.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

It's an issue with the pre-trib view. Even when shown that the church is found all through Revelation, pre-trib still holds to that mantra. Sure, the actual word 'church' is not mentioned, but............

Revelation does refer to Christians in chapters 4-19. It uses the terms “bond-servants” and “saints” to refer to those who have saving faith in Jesus. “Saints” is used 13 times and “bond-servants” is used 10 times. These terms are used before, during, and after chapters 4-19.  There is one point in the scope of Revelation, however, where these terms aren’t found. That is during the trumpet and bowl judgments, consistent with a prewrath rapture. 

 

Well, saints are mentioned 34 times at least in the OT.  Do those make up the body of Messiah as Paul frequently refers to the unique Ekklesia / Church established by Messiah?  I don't think so.

John the Baptist, I would consider him redeemed and therefore a saint.  But Yeshua said....

Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

That means John is considered greater than Abraham, Moses, David, the Prophets, etc.  Yet, he is considered less than even the lowest in the kingdom.    That is the clearest example showing that while all are redeemed by Yeshua, they are all not of the same group or classification.  John was the last of the OT Prophets.  He is not of the unique Body of Messiah Ekklesia.  

And what of the "saints" of Matthew 27 that rose shortly after Yeshua's resurrection.  Were those of the Body of Messiah, the unique Ekklesia / Church that was established 49 days later?  Again, I don't think so.  Especially from the comments about these from many early church writers.

There are saints from the time of Adam thru the GT period.  They are all redeemed by the sacrifice and redemption of Messiah.  But they are all not of the same group.   And that seems to be the problem.  It is a matter of ecclesiology, the study of the Church.  What it is, who it is, and what is unique about it.   And when one gets a real grasp on the ecclesiology, then it is not a stretch to deal with the idea that the Body of Messiah / Ekklesia / Church is not who the "saints" of Revelation are a part of.  If they were considered that, we should see some reference or illustration in Revelation that equates them with the Body of Messiah. But there is none.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

On 12/12/2019 at 10:37 PM, OldCoot said:

they are all not of the same group or classification.  

And what of the "saints" of Matthew 27 that rose shortly after Yeshua's resurrection. 

   the Body of Messiah / Ekklesia / Church is not who the "saints" of Revelation are a part of.  If they were considered that, we should see some reference or illustration in Revelation that equates them with the Body of Messiah. But there is none.

 

Acts 7:38- This is he, that was in the church ( ek-klā-sē'-ä ) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Heb 11:40- God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.......They can NOT be resurrected before us.

Matt 27 is NOT a resurrection.