Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

28 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

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No, Paul said the mystery was that we shall not all sleep, but all will be changed.

.....Which IS the rapture! 

 He was not writing specifically of the Rapture in that passage. Even if he was, that was in 1 Corinthians.  

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The letters to the Thessalonians were the earliest of his letters.  And in those letters, the departure / gathering to Yeshua was told to be prior to the revealing of the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist.  Just like Isaiah in conjunction with Daniel.

Covered that in my last post. Paul doesn't stop speaking but goes into further detail in v. 8 (see above post) proving that Jesus destroys the man of sin at His coming with the spirit of His mouth, remember? so Paul perfectly describes what is seen in Rev. 19. It CANNOT happen when that man is revealed but when he has been in power for 3.5 yrs.

 

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Nope.  

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The context of the passage is our gathering or assembling to Yeshua.  The Thessalonians by either a word or fake letter had been persuaded they were in the day of the Lord.   Paul reassures them that it will not happen until the departure takes place which refers back to the gathering or assembling of us to the Lord.

Many Greek scholars concur that apostasia is literally "departure".  Only when there is a specific subject to suggest what is being departed from can one make the assertion that a falling away in implied.  The only other use of apostasia is in Acts 21:21 where it is specifically said what is being departed from... Moses / The Torah.    The LV uses dicsssio which also has in mind a departure, more specifically a spatial departure over a spiritual one.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961), professor of NT Greek, Moody Bible Institute, contributor to the NASB translation, did the Wuest Expanded Translation of the NT, etc concurs in his writings that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, in the use of the word there, can only mean "departure".  Nothing else.  He wrote at length about this.

Dr. Andy Woods, Lawyer, Theologian, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, Professor at Dallas Theological Seminary has recently put out a small book on this very issue.  He goes to show that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 simply means departure and it is taking liberties with the translation to suggest a "falling away" or apostasy.  It is disingenuous to apply the English word apostasy to the Greek aspostasia.  They sound similar but have different meanings.

So no, I would not agree that they are the opposite.  The context of the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2 is stated in the first verse... the day fo the Lord and our gathering to Him.  Not our departing from Him as a translation of "falling away" would suggest.  Every English translation prior to the KJV and Douay Rheims used "departure".  Only after the KJV did "falling away" come into common usage.  There is no literary basis for that change.

What would be grammatically opposite is to state in the first verse that the topic is about our gathering to Him, then state the focus is our falling away / departing from Him.  We surrender our lives to Yeshua, we do not park our brain at the bus stop.

Hi again Coot

Yeah, I have heard the whole departure thing on that verse before. 

ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Apostasia- divorcement, writing of divorcement...a falling away, defection, apostasy... to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x)...

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3;

In the pre trib world, this kind of thing comes up where straining measures are taken to enforce a desired paradigm. See any references to an important rule for determining meaning in the names thrown around? No, it is called an appeal to authority. A logical fallacy. I am relying on the authority of the scripture. The source. 

So let's look at what the scripture says: As you can see above, this very word is used only twice in scripture (two witnesses)

Acts 21:21- And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2 Thes. 2:3-Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away G646 first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

In short it is about rejection rather than going away somewhere.

So what they have done is shorten the idea of "departing" from the truth and combine the concept of departing "in divorce" to com up with a Frankenstein meaning that ONLY works for a pre trib doctrine. (see Acts 21 above) NOT simply following the pattern of usage in the manuscripts handed down. They employ a change to another language as far as I can remember (yeah, Latin) too, so they can borrow the wording. (and distort it too)  I found their own relied upon wording to fail them when I saw it (deciesio...spelling?) used by Roman historians describing the senate breaking up into their party sides for a session to discuss matters at an impasse. To me it is just another sleight of hand movement that came down the pike.

[OldCoot]

31 minutes ago, Uriah said:

so Paul perfectly describes what is seen in Rev. 19.

Not hardly. 

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

The Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father.  Yeshua sent it to John via an angel.   And that was long after Paul had died.    Paul does not describe what is seen in Revelation 19 since it was not available to him to describe.

[OldCoot]

7 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi again Coot

Yeah, I have heard the whole departure thing on that verse before. 

ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Apostasia- divorcement, writing of divorcement...a falling away, defection, apostasy... to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x)...

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3;

In the pre trib world, this kind of thing comes up where straining measures are taken to enforce a desired paradigm. See any references to an important rule for determining meaning in the names thrown around? No, it is called an appeal to authority. A logical fallacy. I am relying on the authority of the scripture. The source. 

So let's look at what the scripture says: As you can see above, this very word is used only twice in scripture (two witnesses)

Acts 21:21- And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2 Thes. 2:3-Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away G646 first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

In short it is about rejection rather than going away somewhere.

So what they have done is shorten the idea of "departing" from the truth and combine the concept of departing "in divorce" to com up with a Frankenstein meaning that ONLY works for a pre trib doctrine. (see Acts 21 above) NOT simply following the pattern of usage in the manuscripts handed down. They employ a change to another language as far as I can remember (yeah, Latin) too, so they can borrow the wording. (and distort it too)  I found their own relied upon wording to fail them when I saw it (deciesio...spelling?) used by Roman historians describing the senate breaking up into their party sides for a session to discuss matters at an impasse. To me it is just another sleight of hand movement that came down the pike.

You are simply quoting a person who is giving his opinion about what the word apostasia means.  Strong's is not scripture canon.   There are many Greek scholars that go to great lengths to expound what I stated earlier.  And all the English translations prior to the KJV  (and Strong's, Young's, etc concordances) translated apostasia as "departure", "a departure", "departing", "the departing", etc.  

If you are basing a theological position on the basis of one man's idea of what a word means, you are making a grave expositional error.   Even the grammatical context of the passage does not support a "falling away" or departing from the faith.   The context stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is our gathering to Him, not our departing from Him.   

Again, in Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is mentioned for clarity..... departing from Moses / Torah.   There is no mention of what is being departed from in 2 Thessalonians 2, so it is it taking expositional liberty to assert that departing from Yeshua is in view.  

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

Not hardly. 

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

The Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father.  Yeshua sent it to John via an angel.   And that was long after Paul had died.    Paul does not describe what is seen in Revelation 19 since it was not available to him to describe.

The timing means nothing where God is concerned. It is the same Holy Spirit inspiring the writing in both places. Not only that but Paul in one place declares that he had told them things when he was there in Person. We don't know exactly what he told them but it was seemingly quite a load of material. He even said...

Phl 2:10-  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Rev. 5:13- And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon thethrone, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Sounds like both men learned similar things from God.

[OldCoot]

3 minutes ago, Uriah said:

The timing means nothing where God is concerned. It is the same Holy Spirit inspiring the writing in both places. Not only that but Paul in one place declares that he had told them things when he was there in Person. We don't know exactly what he told them but it was seemingly quite a load of material. He even said...

Phl 2:10-  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Rev. 5:13- And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon thethrone, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Sounds like both men learned similar things from God.

I would disagree.  There is a hierarchy to the Godhead, even though all three are the one God.   Even Yeshua states clearly in Matthew 24 that only the Father knows when the end of the world will be. Not He nor the angels know that.    And the Revelation was given to Yeshua directly by the Father.  Yeshua then had it delivered direct to John.  There is no textual support that the HS was involved.   Likewise, since the Revelation was not given to the HS to reveal, there is no support for the idea that Paul had awareness of the Revelation.   Again, the Revelation was not given to anyone but John, and it was in the time period of around 95 AD.  Paul had been dead for at least 30 years. 

[Uriah]

5 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

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You are simply quoting a person who is giving his opinion about what the word apostasia means

I quoted nobody.

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Strong's is not scripture canon

It has definitions of words in the canon, and I would venture to say you have  used it yourself. 

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There are many Greek scholars that go to great lengths to expound what I stated earlier

I would be inclined to say there are also others who would disagree.

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 And all the English translations prior to the KJV  (and Strong's, Young's, etc concordances) translated apostasia as "departure", "a departure", "departing", "the departing", etc.

There t is- the repeated mantra. See what I mean about changing the language? Did they mean departure-ing from the truth, the established order? Look at the USAGE of scripture. 

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If you are basing a theological position on the basis of one man's idea of what a word means, you are making a grave expositional error.

The same can be said about the experts that usually end up in a circle and quote each other.

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  Even the grammatical context of the passage does not support a "falling away" or departing from the faith.

It does if you are someone who writes in obsolete English translating from obsolete Greek.

 

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The context stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is our gathering to Him, not our departing from Him.   

Right, and more context follows. The details are filled in Look at v. 8

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Again, in Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is mentioned for clarity..... departing from Moses / Torah

See what I mean? It is about rejection. Same word in 2 Thes.

.   There is no mention of what is being departed from in 2 Thessalonians 2, so it is it taking expositional liberty to assert that departing from Yeshua is in view.  

 

 

[OldCoot]

5 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I quoted nobody.

 

Then did you dream up this statement in your previous post on your own?  Including the Strong's numbering?

ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Apostasia- divorcement, writing of divorcement...a falling away, defection, apostasy... to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x)...

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3;

 

 

You indeed quoted what another guy stated on what the word means.  You are basing a position on what one man states.   

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

5 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

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I would disagree.  There is a hierarchy to the Godhead, even though all three are the one God.   Even Yeshua states clearly in Matthew 24 that only the Father knows when the end of the world will be. Not He nor the angels know that.

Good thing I didn't say any of that.

   And the Revelation was given to Yeshua directly by the Father.  Yeshua then had it delivered direct to John.  

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There is no textual support that the HS was involved.

The Holy Spirit is involved in everything the Father and son do.

  Likewise, since the Revelation was not given to the HS to reveal, there is no support for the idea that Paul had awareness of the Revelation.   Again, the Revelation was not given to anyone but John, and it was in the time period of around 95 AD.  Paul had been dead for at least 30 years. 

As I said, time means nothing to God. The Holy Spirit according to Jesus shows people things to come.

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Uriah

[Uriah]

4 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Then did you dream up this statement in your previous post on your own?  Including the Strong's numbering?

ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Apostasia- divorcement, writing of divorcement...a falling away, defection, apostasy... to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x)...

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3;

 

 

You indeed quoted what another guy stated on what the word means.  You are basing a position on what one man states.   This means that my answers are mine, not quotes of other, they originate from me.

 

Oh my, you aren't following the post. I quoted nobody for my answer. So if we cannot use dictionaries now, what is the use?

Edited June 23, 2019 by Uriah