Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

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Except, the only two witnesses are the NT and the OT when it comes to doctrine.  Not two examples from either OT or NT.

I think Jesus is the main witness. It is Him giving two examples , which may not be acceptable to pre trib strictures. Jesus IS the New Testament. If what He says doesn't count, there is a whole different problem to deal with. He has the final say-so on what the teaching/doctrine is. 

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Please show the verse from Matthew 24 that the elect are taken up after the cataclysms. 

Matt 24:29:- Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: This is just a few verses before he says, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

These are the same things shown In Rev. 6:12-13-  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

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The "elect" does not only mean the redeemed.  Election is not an alternative word for justification.  One can be elect for the purpose of Yahweh and not be righteous.

See above, He is gathering HIS ELECT. 

  Only the justified are righteous.  Isaiah 45 tells us that Jacob (Israel) is Yahweh's elect.  Yeshua does an expositional commentary on Joel 3 in Matthew 25 where the nations are judged on how they treated the elect.. the Hebrew people. 

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And in Matthew 24, "as it was the days of Noah".... read it carefully.

Indeed! Jesus says the day Noah was saved is when the judgment came down. Are you saying this NOT true?

 Those who are taken are those fit for destruction just like those in Noah's day who were taken by the flood.  

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 So there is no "rapture" or "taken up" going on .................  Strange idea, but I have heard stranger ideas.

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect, 2 Thes 2:1- Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And all this is going on in lieu of the righteous having been gathered and placed into the rooms prepared by Yeshua for them at His Father's house prior to the indignation beginning.    The indignation (za'am) is the wrath.   The wrath begins before the antichrist is revealed.  The redeemed are gathered to their rooms before the wrath begins.    Isaiah, Daniel, John, and Paul to the Thessalonians support this concept. 

For some (unknown?) reason you will not acknowledge 2 Thes 2:8. Some translations in Is. 26 say "Go, lock your doors..." that is not a rapture And I am not sure which verse in Daniel you refer to.

 

[OldCoot]

4 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I think Jesus is the main witness. It is Him giving two examples , which may not be acceptable to pre trib strictures.

But nowhere does Yeshua say in Matthew 24 that the redeemed of Yeshua are the elect He is talking about.  The entire discourse is directed at the Hebrew people starting in Matthew 23 onward.  Starting at the temple area and later at the Mount of Olives.  If you want a discourse directed to the church you are in the wrong passage. You need to look at John 14-16 at the last supper.

Following the hermeneutic principle of law of first mention and expositional constancy, the elect of Matthew 24-25 refers to Jacob (Israel).  The Hebrew people.  From Matthew 23 right on thru the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25.   Never are the redeemed referred to as the "elect" until the epistles.  So the elect that Yeshua refers to has to be the elect of Isaiah, which is Jacob (Israel).  

If one doesn't follow established principles of exegesis then there is no objective standard and folks end up all over the map in terms of these things.  

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

But nowhere does Yeshua say in Matthew 24 that the redeemed of Yeshua are the elect He is talking about.  The entire discourse is directed at the Hebrew people starting in Matthew 23 onward.  Starting at the temple area and later at the Mount of Olives.  If you want a discourse directed to the church you are in the wrong passage. You need to look at John 14-16 at the last supper.

Following the hermeneutic principle of law of first mention and expositional constancy, the elect of Matthew 24-25 refers to Jacob (Israel).  The Hebrew people.  From Matthew 23 right on thru the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25.   Never are the redeemed referred to as the "elect" until the epistles.  So the elect that Yeshua refers to has to be the elect of Isaiah, which is Jacob (Israel).  

If one doesn't follow established principles of exegesis then there is no objective standard and folks end up all over the map in terms of these things.  

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see  how it can be so hard to read sentences. This is the Gospel for ALL people. First mentioned (above) HE. 

Who do you say this "he" is? Then, who are "his" elect"? Let us refer back to the one who is the first subject in the sentence. The "elect of God" are believers in the epistles, yet you say the "elect" of God, presumably as stated in the O.T. are being gathered here, meaning Israelis and I suppose this is where  you say they are taken to Israel too. But it doesn't say that. It is pure assumption. In the N.T. believers are the elect. My friend, this turns into a square dance of shifting focus.

Matt 24:1 clearly states Jesus departed form the religious leaders and laid out things to His disciples. That's us! All through the chapter He tells about His followers not being deceived, mistreated, persecuted, the Gospel of the Kingdom spreading worldwide, false christs, the sign of the Son of Man seen by the nations, and suddenly HE means Israelis. HE sends out angels, HIS angels for His elect which now is NOT His followers. This the lengths pre trib teaching goes to.

Of course a few verses further we still have that pseky Noah reference you haven't answered yet, or Lot, as well as the other verses I cited. Like rev. 15:8 etc.

[OldCoot]

52 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see  how it can be so hard to read sentences. This is the Gospel for ALL people. First mentioned (above) HE. 

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

That is why Matthew 24 doesn't line up with your assertion.   Especially since other passages in both OT and NT show the redeemed are gathered to the Lord before the end times events begin.  And, since there is no reference of the redeemed being referred to as an elect body until later in the epistles, and even then, it is never stated that Jacob no longer is elect.

Never confuse election with redemption.  All redeemed are elect, but not all elect are redeemed.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Mary8]

 

I really appreciated some of the comments about Isaiah 26:20,  'Come My people enter into thy chambers' which I knew about, but I had just overlooked the very next verse, about the Lord destroying a serpent, and then a few verses away, a great trumpet!    

 

Following is my effort to select more verses in Isaiah chapters 26, 27, 28, which I think are encouraging about the Rapture, and how the Lord will then help Israel.

Isa. 24: 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [points to the principalities and 'powers of the air']

Isa. 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Isaiah 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in....
5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. [like when He brought down Jericho]
6 The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.... [brings to mind Psalm 91:13 thou shalt tread upon the lion and the adder, the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet]
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness....
13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Isa 26: 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa. 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. [
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. [the next verses make it clear that the vineyard spoken of is the Lord's]

6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit....

9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up....   [the Lord will bring down the harlot church]
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isa. 28: 5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Mary8
correct my comment about the vineyard

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

That is why Matthew 24 doesn't line up with your assertion.   Especially since other passages in both OT and NT show the redeemed are gathered to the Lord before the end times events begin.  And, since there is no reference of the redeemed being referred to as an elect body until later in the epistles, and even then, it is never stated that Jacob no longer is elect.

Never confuse election with redemption.  All redeemed are elect, but not all elect are redeemed.

I say Jesus is coming for His elect just as it says on the page. That is us. That is the assertion of Jesus, it is right on the page. His elect. You do realize He is the one stating it, right? His elect. We ARE redeemed and we ARE the elect, His elect. It doesn't matter when somebody wrote something, He made all of His followers, those born again, His elect at the cross. All else is a diversion and word game to avoid what is plainly seen by commentators, disciples and apostles. They recognized, but do you? You just keep repeating the same thing, and rejecting scriptures you don't like. The verse in Isaiah has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus, you are simply trying to build something on finding related word and ignore the context of Matt. 24.  

And I have shown scripture that shows otherwise regarding the pre trib teaching but you ignore it. 

[Uriah]

4 minutes ago, Mary8 said:

 

I really appreciated some of the comments about Isaiah 26:20,  'Come My people enter into thy chambers' which I knew about, but I had just overlooked the very next verse, about the Lord destroying a serpent, and then a few verses away, a great trumpet!    

 

Following is my effort to select more verses in Isaiah chapters 26, 27, 28, which I think are encouraging about the Rapture, and how the Lord will then help Israel.

Isa. 24: 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [points to the principalities and 'powers of the air']

Isa. 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Isaiah 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in....
5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. [like when He brought down Jericho]
6 The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.... [brings to mind Psalm 91:13 thou shalt tread upon the lion and the adder, the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet]
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness....
13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Isa 26: 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa. 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. [
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.... [brings to mind Revelation, the sickle, and the grapes of gall like blood]
6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit....
9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up....   [the Lord will bring down the harlot church]
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isa. 28: 5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
 

Hello Mary8

It is certainly does match what we read elsewhere in the N.T. You have some great observations above in your post, thanks.

[Mary8]

Thanks for your kind words.    I kept noticing the repetition of "in that day" and felt it was linking those chapters together, and sort of linking those events of the end times.   (I skimmed some earlier and later chapters around Isaiah 26, and some of them have "in that day" but about words that pointed to other events, not to end time things.)    I'm hoping to get more insights on some of the Scriptures that I quoted (or some that I left out).    Sometimes there will be something that really seems to jump out, not fit, or be repeated, and it triggers more interest and thinking about the words.

[OldCoot]

27 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I say Jesus is coming for His elect just as it says on the page. That is us. That is the assertion of Jesus, it is right on the page. His elect. You do realize He is the one stating it, right? His elect. We ARE redeemed and we ARE the elect, His elect. It doesn't matter when somebody wrote something, He made all of His followers, those born again, His elect at the cross. All else is a diversion and word game to avoid what is plainly seen by commentators, disciples and apostles. They recognized, but do you? You just keep repeating the same thing, and rejecting scriptures you don't like. The verse in Isaiah has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus, you are simply trying to build something on finding related word and ignore the context of Matt. 24.  

And I have shown scripture that shows otherwise regarding the pre trib teaching but you ignore it. 

But like I stated, for that to be the case it has to meet the evidentiary requirement set forth in the Torah... it has to be confirmed by two witnesses and the Bereans affirmed this and set forth the requirement of the OT and NT being those two witnesses.  Not two from the same section, passage, book, etc but both OT and NT.  Thus far, you have shown no support for your position from the OT.

It is the reason that Yeshua did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery.  After he had told the nincompoops that had come to stone her, that anyone without sin could cast the first stone, they walked away leaving no other witnesses to condemn her.  Yeshua knew what she had done, but was only one witness.  And according to the Torah, she could not be condemned on the testimony of one witness, so Yeshua told her to go and sin no more.

On the other hand, I and others have provided many examples of how the redeemed that make up the body of Messiah are caught away before the tribulation period begins.  Equally in both OT and NT.   Nothing you have presented has negated the testimony of those two witnesses.

So unless you can provide support from the OT for your assertion, it does not meet the evidentiary requirement of scripture and is invalid.   Therefore, due to lack of evidence.... case dismissed.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

15 minutes ago, Mary8 said:

Thanks for your kind words.    I kept noticing the repetition of "in that day" and felt it was linking those chapters together, and sort of linking those events of the end times.   (I skimmed some earlier and later chapters around Isaiah 26, and some of them have "in that day" but about words that pointed to other events, not to end time things.)    I'm hoping to get more insights on some of the Scriptures that I quoted (or some that I left out).    Sometimes there will be something that really seems to jump out, not fit, or be repeated, and it triggers more interest and thinking about the words.

I have seen the same correlation for quite some time.  Isaiah 26 has been a real nugget.  You are on target and fit things together well.  

Take it a wee bit further.....  look at the word for indignation in Isaiah 26:20.... za'am .... which also means wrath.  Then take a look at Daniel 8:19.   The same word is used.  And following the passage in Daniel, it talks about a king who will arise in the future and describes the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist.  And it Daniel 8:19, it says this guy is revealed later in the wrath, not before the wrath.  Go back to Isaiah 26 and the righteous are hidden their rooms (see John 14) before the wrath starts.    This is an "in your face" confirmation of the pre-trib removal of the righteous.

Many attribute this fierce king that arises with Antiochus, but there are many learned expositors that show the passage is talking about the final fierce king that will come upon the earth.... the antichrist.  Antiochus was a forerunner, but what is described goes beyond anything Antiochus was.