Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Dispensationalism and replacement theology have no scriptural support.

Disagree on first, agree on second.   Dispensation as you might understand the concept may not be in scripture, but that doesn't negate that the idea is in scripture.

Ephesians 1:10 (NKJV) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Ephesians 3:2 (NKJV) if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

The covenants given throughout the OT exhibit dispensation.  The Adamic Covenant, the laws were very limited in scope and the revealing of God was minimal.  the Noahide Covenant, more laws were brought in as requirements and there was more revealing of the nature of God.   With the Abrahamic Covenant, even more reveling of the nature and plan of God was brought out.  With the Davidic Covenant, yet again, more of the nature and plan of God was revealed.  Each is a dispensation. 

Those are just examples and not a conclusive list by far.

So dispensation is a scriptural concept.  Even if someone refuses to believe it, which probably has more to do with misunderstanding the concept at best.

Edited January 13, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Now we all love this one. We sure want the promises. But then we seem to distance ourselves when it comes to any sort of curse or trouble. Curses and trouble are only for the Jewish nation after all not for the western idea of the 'church'. The 'church' is separate, blessed, perfect in all their ways, they have nothing to do with the Jews. According to Paul the only criteria is to be in Christ and then we are counted as the Seed of Abraham.

That would be correct except for the following...

Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful.   Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord.  Not the unique Body of Messiah.

Tribulation is general is a part of the Christian experience to one degree or another.  But the coming tribulation as a part of driving unbelieving Israel to the wall to get them to recognize their Messiah and accept Him is not.  Again, it is a matter of ecclesiology more than eschatology along with an understanding of what the 70th week and GT period are all about and who is the primary focus.  Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church.  The 70th week of Daniel 9 pertaining to his people leaves only Israel and gentiles with Israel the primary focus since it will be incumbent on them to recognize their corporate rejection of Messiah and petition for His return as per the prophet Hosea.

Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically.  Else all males that are Christian would be required to be circumcised which is a sign of the still in force unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (similarly, while there is no male or female in Messiah, there is a physical distinction that remains).   Yet the Jerusalem Council, Peter, Paul all agree that circumcision was not required of gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah. Acts 15.   And James also had Paul take an offering to the temple for the Nazarite Vow to prove that he did not teach Hebrews living in the diaspora to forsake the requirements of being a physical seed of Abraham.  Acts 21

And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them.  Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15.   

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

Edited January 13, 2020 by OldCoot

[Resurrection Priest]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He told her not to touch or handle him as He had yet ascended to the Father.  

I think the original wording can also be translated as "don't hold on to me" or "cling to me" - which was a euphemism for "don't detain me". 

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (NAS)

Jesus had to ascend to His Father, to present Himself as the "firstfruits".  It was the day for that presentation in the Temple. 

One thing I find interesting is that some say the thief from the cross had to be "in Paradise" with Christ, on Friday.  But Christ had "not yet ascended" to paradise on Sunday morning.

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/12/2020 at 2:41 PM, Alive said:

Isn’t the Lord ruling with a rod of iron for the 1000 years? 7th

 

19 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Indeed.  As are we along side Him....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—
as I also have received from My Father;

Doesn't say we rule with Him, "over the nations" DURING the 7th millennium.

I believe we will rule on the earth DURING the 8th millennium.  That is when "the rest of the dead" will "live again".  (Rev 20:5-6).  THAT is when kings will be needed to rule the nations.  That is when priests will be needed to teach the nations. 

"The nations" are not "dashed to pieces" until they come up to attack the City at the Gog/Magog Battle.  That happens AFTER Satan is loosed.  Satan is chained in the abyss at the Second Coming - for 1000 years.  That puts his release at the 8th millennium.  (Revelation Chapter 20)

[Behold]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Dispensationalism has no scriptural support.

 

Sure it does.  what the NT  doesn't have is the word "dispensations" in it.  But it also does not have the word "trinity", in it.

But a verse does describe it, as part of the process of becoming a sound student of NT doctrines, and the bible in general.

The verse is this..  "study to show thyself approved unto God,......... RIGHTLY DIVIDING"....

The fact is, if you don't understand a few dispensations, and how they work, you'll never be able to understand much in the NT .

The word there......"dividing", it literally means, comprehend the divisions, as seasons, and times, and judgments, seals,   etc.

So, let me give you some simple dispensations.  As these are in fact nothing more then how God was dealing with man, in different ways, at different times..

you'll note that as you read them, you probably already knew this, but didnt realize this is "rightly dividing".....or dispensational teaching.

1.) FROM : Genesis to Moses.    You have NO LAW.  

2.) From MOSES TO CHRIST< you have Law and no Grace.

3.) From Jesus (The Cross), Till the Great Trib, you have the "time of the gentiles", = "not under the law, but under grace". Salvation is a Free Gift

4.) From the Trib to the Millennium ....... everything changes again, regarding how God deals with man.

And there are more....

Where the problem come is, is with Hyper Dispensationalism.

Where WISDOM comes in, is when God shows you how to not be one of those, and why not to be one of those.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by Behold

[Resurrection Priest]

19 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I never called them "fathers".  Norm Geisler might have, but I called them "early church writers".

There is no word in the Hebrew for "grandfather" or "great grandfather".   They just called them "the fathers". 

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (KJV)

When Jesus said, "Call no man your father on the earth", He was not telling them to be disrespectful to their male ancestors. 

He was telling them not to regard any male (living or dead) as THE authority over them - when it came to matters of faith or belief or doctrine.  Went towards freeing them from the Oral Torah of the Pharisees (later the Mishna) upon which the "traditions" were based.   The Jews were fond of saying "We have Abraham as our father" or Moses.  Jesus was telling them not to elevate any human being above God in Heaven. 

[Resurrection Priest]

19 hours ago, OldCoot said:

s a side note, a reasonable case can be made from 2 Thessalonians 2 that the timing of this removal is before the antichrist/son of perdition/man of sin is revealed.  Pinning down the removal definitively before the 70th week starts and the seals are broken.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( KJV)

What "day" is "that day" ?  Just back up one verse.

 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (NAS)

"that day" is "the day of the LORD". 

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (NKJ)

Doesn't sound like we will be raptured off the earth BEFORE the DAY the earth is burned. 

I personally believe the 7 bowl plagues will be "poured out" ON THE DAY that Christ returns in glory.  We are removed first, then the last plagues are poured out - ON THAT DAY.

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day."  (Rev. 18:8)

If it's like Sodom, Lot and family were pulled out of the city by angels just ahead of the fire coming down.  SAME DAY.

Jeremiah said he was shown "the earth" AFTER the "great day of the LORD".  

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light." 

I personally am of the opinion that this earth will be desolate and uninhabited for at least a good part of the 7th millennium. 

According to Jeremiah, desolation for the earth IS "rest".   (Lev 26:23-25)

We will be in "the Father's House".  We won't return to our inheritance to resume work, until "the Jubilee". 

Lest anyone say that "the earth" is only "the land" promised to Abraham's seed:

Hebrews 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment." (NIV)

The "earth" that "will perish" is the same one created "in the beginning". 

[Resurrection Priest]

11 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

I do not believe "the root" was "the Patriarch's faith".  Sorry.

"if the root be holy, so are the branches."

The "root" of the Olive Tree in Romans Chapt 11, is "holy".  So WHO is that Root?  Answer: Yeshua, who has existed from "the beginning" as God's only begotten Son. 

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."

The holy Root [Jesus] nourishes the Olive Tree [Israel].  I can grant you that the trunk may be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  But not "the root". 

In a similar illustration, Christ said "the branches" must draw life from "the Vine".  Jesus said, "I am the vine." 

[Resurrection Priest]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

LOL! Sorry for laughing, but you are ASSUMING that one INSTANTLY becomes a king and/or a priest upon resurrection! Do YOU know how to perform the duties of a king or a priest right now? If you don't (and I'm pretty sure you don't), what makes you think we'll be ready immediately after resurrection/transformation? No, these "elders" are those among the children of Israel who already HAD such experience! OR, there are some who will have learning curves before they will be ready to perform their duties.

You got it partly correct: The twenty-four elders ARE human beings, freshly resurrected, waiting for the time when they will reign on the earth (as under-kings of the King of kings, Yeshua` haMashiyach haMelekh)!

You're also making an assumption that the Greek words "hoo ouranoo" do not mean "the sky" but mean "Heaven."

Nope!  Wrong again.  I was NOT ASSUMING such. 

Why don't you just ASK ME, if I'm "assuming" something.  I'll tell you if an assumption is built in to my conclusions. 

Why ASSUME I'm assuming?

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heaven is the "true" Tabernacle. 

I believe those raised/saved at the Glorious Return will go to Heaven (the "true Tabernacle") where they will live and study and learn and heal - for 1000 years (the 7th millennium).  THEN we will return to our inheritance.  THEN we will begin our work as kings and priests, over "the rest of the dead" who will be resurrected at that time (Rev 20:5). 

In the TYPE, priests were consecrated for 7 days.  They did not begin their priestly ministry UNTIL "the eighth day". 

Leviticus 8:33  "And you shall not go outside the door of the Tabernacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended.  For seven days He shall consecrate you."

"With the LORD a day is as a thousand years" (2Peter 3:8). 

8th day = 8th millennium

"The woman" (Israel) who gave birth to the male child (Yeshua), won't even be "clean" until "the 8th day".   Remember those childbirth laws?

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Resurrection Priest

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( KJV)

What "day" is "that day" ?  Just back up one verse.

 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (NAS)

"that day" is "the day of the LORD". 

Well, according to every English translation of the the passage prior to the KJV, as well as the Latin Vulgate.....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

In the Latin Vulgate, the word discessio is used, which simply means departure.  Many well known Greek scholars have shown that apostasia in the Greek, by itself, only means a departure.  Only when combined with what is being departed from the in the text is there cause to mean something else.  Like is Acts 21:21 where the word is used and applied to mean departing from Torah, or Moses.  Aphistemi is the verb form of the noun Apostasia, and in the 15 times it is used in the NT, 12 times it refers to a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual departure.  

And in the same context a few verses later,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

In the NKJV, same thing....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

So the context is something is being removed or departed before the man of sin can be revealed.   The context of the passage was laid out early on....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Evidently a forged letter claiming to be from Paul had scared these folks into thinking the day of the Lord was already upon them.  Paul had to remind them that the departure would come first, then the man of sin would be revealed.  When taken in total, Chapter 2 is easing their mind that they were not in the Day of the Lord since they were still here!