Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

There will come a day when the lies are over and the truth is revealed. Really looking forward to that.

Yes indeed....that will be the great and terrible day of the Lord...Great for the believers and terrible for the unbelievers...

[transmogrified]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:07 PM, truth7t7 said:

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Who do you think this man was? 

 

[iamlamad]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:47 AM, transmogrified said:

Pre trib advocates have used the mistranslation of Rev. 5:9-10 in the KJV to advance the idea that the church is in heaven prior to the seals being opened.

The KJV states the 4 beasts and the 24 elders were singing a song thanking God that they had been redeemed out of every nation kindred and tongue...however it is true from other scriptures that the 4 beasts are angelic beings who are not out of every nation kindred and tongue, nor are angels redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

The apparent contradiction has been corrected in most of the newer versions to read "And they sang a new song with these words; 'you are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God  (not 'us') from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them (not 'us') a kingdom of priests to our God, and they (not 'we') shall reign on the earth." 

I could keep with the error and say the translators are infallible, or I could stay with the original text that did not have this contradiction in it and say God's Word is infallible.

The true translation places a person in a much better position in combatting the misunderstanding that the church was already resurrected and in heaven before the seals were opened, as we know all the believers are resurrected on the last day and not before the last day. 

Blessings to you-

 

Most people read right over chapter 5 and don't understand that it is the context for the first seal and establishes the timing to around 32 AD. In other words, any theory that the first seal is the antichrist is 2000 years off and is bogus.

[transmogrified]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Most people read right over chapter 5 and don't understand that it is the context for the first seal and establishes the timing to around 32 AD.

What caused you to think the first seal was opened in 32 AD?

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

What caused you to think the first seal was opened in 32 AD?

I read and understand Revelation 4 & 5.

When did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down as John saw and wrote in chapter 5?

Edited March 17, 2022 by iamlamad
spelling

[transmogrified]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:17 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/16/2022 at 5:56 PM, transmogrified said:

What caused you to think the first seal was opened in 32 AD?

I read and understand Revelation 4 & 5.

When did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down as John saw and wrote in chapter 5?

Where in chapter 5 does it show that Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down in 32 AD?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Where in chapter 5 does it show that Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down in 32 AD?

You need help for this?

 

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Verse 2: a search is conducted to find someone worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Verse 3: this first search John watched ended with failure.

Verse 4: John wept much. We know it must be a man. God could not open it.

Verse 5: TIME PASSED. Another search was made, Jesus prevailed (over death) to be found worthy.

Verse 6: Suddenly Jesus appears in the throne room. It must be right after Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. He sent her away then ascended. John saw the moment He entered the throne room.

Then the Holy Spirit was immediately sent down.

Remember, Jesus told His disciples that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down.

[transmogrified]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:46 PM, iamlamad said:

Most people read right over chapter 5 and don't understand that it is the context for the first seal and establishes the timing to around 32 AD. In other words, any theory that the first seal is the antichrist is 2000 years off and is bogus.

The events described in each seal determines the context and would not be based upon when Jesus arrived in heaven...if it is asserted the white horse went out to conquer in 32 AD because that is when Jesus arrived in heaven, then all the other seals would be dependent upon this same premise, but they are not.

Jesus opened the fifth seal and saw souls under the alter who were killed by the beast...does that mean these souls were also killed by the beast in 32 AD because that is when Jesus allegedly arrived in heaven? No. Of course not..these are all future events that are yet to happen...

Jesus opened the sixth seal and the sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood and the stars fell to the earth and the heaven departed and every island and mountain were moved out of their places, and men hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains...Did all of this also happen in 32 AD because Jesus allegedly opened these seals in 32 AD? No of course not...these events are still future and have not been fulfilled yet.

Blessings to you- Gary

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The events described in each seal determines the context and would not be based upon when Jesus arrived in heaven...if it is asserted the white horse went out to conquer in 32 AD because that is when Jesus arrived in heaven, then all the other seals would be dependent upon this same premise, but they are not.

Jesus opened the fifth seal and saw souls under the alter who were killed by the beast...does that mean these souls were also killed by the beast in 32 AD because that is when Jesus allegedly arrived in heaven? No. Of course not..these are all future events that are yet to happen...

Jesus opened the sixth seal and the sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood and the stars fell to the earth and the heaven departed and every island and mountain were moved out of their places, and men hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains...Did all of this also happen in 32 AD because Jesus allegedly opened these seals in 32 AD? No of course not...these events are still future and have not been fulfilled yet.

Blessings to you- Gary

Logically, it would be impossible for the first seal, opened around 32 AD to be the Antichrist that many today imagine the first seal represents. 

Next, there is not one word in the description that would hint of evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, every other time to represent righteousness, pureness, or something Godly. God simply would not use white one time for something evil.

What was the only righteous (white) entity on the earth at that time? It was the infant church. I am therefore convinced the first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. Several commentaries agree.

Yes, they are. Seals 2, 3, and 4 were opened when seal one was opened. I am sure the devil demanded (he is the god of this world) he be allowed to stop the gospel if God was to send the church out with the gospel. 

Seal 5 the martyrs of the BEAST? You are 2000 years off! The truth is, that seal was opened in time for  Stephen and others Saul had put to death. If they were martyrs of the Beast they were KNOW that God was in the process of judgment. They would have no need to ask when. 

Anyway, the fifth seal is the first hint of a long waiting time. Therefore I believe Jesus opened the first five seals very soon after getting the book into His hands. 

The 6th seal will have timing involved: the timing of the rapture and the start of the DAY. 

The 7th seal will probably be opened ten days after the 6th: the ten days of AWE.

NOT all future events. That theory is myth. 

You will probably disagree, and that is OK.

Do you have any concept of John's Chronology? In chapter 4, God started the vision during a time while Jesus was UNDER the earth. That is why He was not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father. That is why the Holy Spirit was still there. That is why "no man was found." 

But TIME PASSES as pages are turned in Revelation.

The time came (in chapter 5) that Jesus rose from the dead and was then found worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

Then Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, took the book and opened the first 5 seals.

Then a LOT OF TIME passed. We are still waiting for that final church age martyr. We are also waiting on the rapture of the Bride.

When the time comes, Jesus will descend, the dead in Christ will rise, causing a great, worldwide earthquake - the 6th seal earthquake.

We are caught up to Jesus in the air, and He will then take us to the homes He has prepared, to wait out the time of Wrath on earth. Then chapters 8 through 16 take place as the 70th week plays out. God marked the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it.

At the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, causing the world's worst ever earthquake. Then, the marriage and supper will take place in heaven, because all will be ready, in resurrection bodies.

AFter the marriage supper, we all return with Jesus.

See how simple this is if we just follow John?

Blessings to you too!

[Linkin]

Jesus was crucified in 30 AD. The destruction of the Temple occurred in 70 AD. 40 years after Jesus said it would be. [John 19:31, shows Jesus' crucifixion took place on a high Sabbath, which only occurred in AD30 or AD33].

Jesus [as well as other OT prophets] prophesied of the coming destruction many times to the Nation of Israel.

Jesus words- Luke 19:41-44 [The same thing happened at the First Exile, where they were surrounded and starved out, eating their own children etc.]

Jeremiah Prophesied for 40 years before the destruction of the First Temple.

Israel was destroyed 40 years after Jesus prophesied against them the second time.

God always warns before disaster occurs as in the 2 exiles from the land.

Noah was warned 120 years before the flood. God warned Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. 

Before the First Exile even ended while Daniel was praying for the sins of his people, God told Daniel, He was going to Destroy the Temple a second time. Dan 9:26

The warning has been in the Bible since the beginning.

 

The Bible has many analogies between the First Exile [in Babylon] and this Second Exile [the Diaspora]. [Leviticus 26:17-18]
You will be DEFEATED BY YOUR ENEMIES [REFERS TO THE FIRST EXILE]...And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will PUNISH YOU 7 TIMES MORE [refers to the Second Exile] for your sins. The First Exile lasted 70 years, so ''seven times more'' is 490 years. The warning is repeated in verses 21, 24 and 28, which means it occurs 4 times in total. Therefore God will punish the Jews one, two, three and four times, and each time lasts ''seven times more'' than the First Exile, i.e. 490 years. And 4 X 490 is 1960 years.
The 2nd Exile started in 70 AD, add the 1960 years punishment and we arrive at 2030, [however the Jewish New Year [Rosh Hashanah] is offset by a few months from our Roman calendar, so the year is 2029 on Rosh Hashanah, which can occur between September 5 and October 5.
The Tribulation commences when the 2nd Exile ends in 2029, it is the last Week [7 years] of Daniel's 70 Week Prophecy.
Jesus returns in 2036 on Yom Kippur, at the last trumpet on the 120th Jubilee since creation.
Balaam prophesied of a “Star” rising who is the Messiah (Num. 24:16-19).
Rev. 22:16 Jesus referred to Himself as the
“bright and morning star,” which in astronomy is the planet Venus when it appears early in the morning. Peter stated
that the “morning star” would arise on the Day of Christ’s return (1 Pet. 1:19). “The sign of the Son of man in the sky”
(Matt. 24:30), while the sun and moon are dark, very well may involve the planet Venus rising in conjunction with
Regulus (King) in the constellation Leo (Lion). This conjunction at dawn (viewed from Jerusalem) will occur on Yom
Kippur 2036.

 

Consider also:

2 Peter 3:5 For they are willingly oblivious to this: that the skies continued from antiquity, and the land out from water39 and by water having been upheld40 by the announcement41 of God,

6 through which [announcement] the existing order was destroyed.

7 And the present skies and land, having been set aside by the same announcement, 42 are reserved for fire until the Day of Justice and the destruction of ungodly men.43

8 Yet, do not miss this one thing: that one day with the Master is as a thousand years,

 

41 In Gen. 6:3 God announced to Noah that he was delaying mankind’s judgment for 120 years. This announcement withheld the judgment of the flood for the predetermined time (while Noah prepared the ark), but also brought the judgment at the appointed time 120 years later.

42 The literal meaning of Peter’s statement is that the very same announcement that God made to Noah (that judgment would come for man in 120 years) not only withheld God’s judgment of the flood until the end of the specified time, but the same statement also indicates the time of the second destruction by fire.

Genesis 6:3 has a dual meaning, predicting the first destruction by flood in 120 solar years, and the second destruction by fire in 120 Jubilee years (6000 years from creation). A Jubilee year occurs every 50th year (Lev. 25).

43 Isa. 66:24; 2 Thess. 1:7-10

 

Hosea 5:14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear [*them] to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
15 Then I will return to my lair
until they have borne their guilt
and seek my face —
in their misery
they will earnestly seek me. ”

*[them is not in the original text]

I WILL GO AWAY and return to My place [i.e. heaven]...He will revive us AFTER TWO DAYS... that WE MAY LIVE BEFORE HIM. [Hosea 5:15-6:2] Jesus quotes from this passage and applies the phrase ''I will go away'' to His ascension: I GO AWAY....where I am going [i.e. heaven] you cannot come. [John 8:21]
 

Hosea 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

Jesus returns on the third day, not exactly 2 days [2 millennia later].

Jesus went away almost 2000 years ago, He returns on the third day, which is after 6000 years since creation.

Exodus 19:11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

2 Peter 3:8 Yet, do not miss this one thing: that one day with the Master is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*This is a paraphrase of Psalm 90:4, which reads in the LXX, “because a thousand years in Your eyes are like the day, yesterday which passes by...” This statement was inferred from God’s threat to Adam that “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17), because “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19). Adam returned to dust in the same ‘day’ (millennium) that he ate the forbidden fruit at the age of 930 (Gen. 5:5). None of Adam’s descendants’ lives have exceeded “one day” (1000 years) in God’s reckoning.

If you are waiting for a pretrib midtrib rapture [to where?] you will be bitterly disappointed. 

John 8:21 Where I go, you cannot come.”
 

John 3:13 And no one81 has ascended82 into the sky except the one who descended83 out of the sky, 84 the Son of Man, the one being in the sky. 85

80 This editorial commentary follows Jesus statement in verse 12 because John wanted to explain how Jesus could have seen and thus testify concerning “the celestial things.”

81 The Apostle John wrote this after the destruction of Jerusalem and the deaths of Peter and Paul. In Acts 2:34-35 Peter said that David had not ascended into the sky.

82 The perfect tense of the verb requires that after ascending, the Son remained in the sky at the time these words stated. This is proof that verse 13 was John’s commentary after the ascension, rather than being part of Jesus’ dialogue with Nicodemus.

83 In John 6:38 Jesus said, “I have descended out of the sky” using the perfect tense of the verb (which requires a continued result of a past action) because He was still present on earth at the time. Here John used the aorist tense (which only describes a past action) because Jesus was no longer on earth when John made this statement. Other passages that refer to the Son of God having descended from the sky are: John 3:31; John 6:33,38,41-42,46,51,62; John 8:23; John 13:3; John 16:27-28; Eph. 4:9-10 (cf. Psalm 139:13-16)

 

The rapture is being gathered in the air by the messengers/angels of God after the tribulation. We then will descend back to the land to be witnesses of the battle of Armageddon where Jesus destroys the wicked after gathering them there. [cf Zech 14:2-3 Joel 3:2 Rev 16:14-16]

see also the parable of the wheat and tares, where God gathers the wicked to be burned and the righteous to Him.

All these events are the Day Of The Lord, referenced many times in the OT and NT.

Jesus 1000 year Kingdom commences after The Day of The Lord. The Gog Magog battle is at the end of that 1000 years. Then all evil is destroyed by God completely and forever. i.e. no eternal torment of the wicked, but utter destruction.

Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire.

 

Jude 1: 7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in like manner to these [men], having prostituted and having gone after strange flesh, display a specimen of permanent fire,15 experiencing justice, 

 

15 “  ” is translated in the KJV as “an example … of everlasting fire.” Yet, the Greek word ““ means a specimen (of the same thing) and not merely a representation. Thus, the fire that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah was indeed “ “ This shows that ““ which is rendered “eternal” in the KJV does not mean that the fire burns forever, but that the effects of the fire are permanent. Sodom and Gomorrah were completely obliterated so that absolutely nothing remained.

16 2 Pet. 2:6 makes it clear that the complete annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah is the pattern for what will befall the ungodly.