Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:07 PM, The Light said:

No sir, the danger is not watching and being ready for the Messiah.

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Looking for the rapture and looking for the coming of the Lord is not the same thing.  First, Jesus is here.  Second, when he comes he will first take out the tares and the wheat will remain.  This is the conquering King wiping out all who do not weep and mourn over iniquity.  Third, he will come as the Judge of all the earth.  That will be the time that the dead in Christ are raised.  It is only after the dead in Christ are raised that the rapture can occur.

[seeking the lost]

On 3/24/2023 at 7:46 AM, choir loft said:

I really wish you'd read my post - all the way through.

Again there are 16 different variations of rapture, tribulation & millenium theories.  No two of them agree.  They don't agree because of a few simple reasons.

First,  are speculations surrounding the Second Coming involving events that have already happened.  The Tribulation of the Jews is one of them and is already past. (btw, I'm not a Preterist.  I'm an historian.)

Second, are doctrines that are directly disproved by history or which depend upon a nebulous interpretation of it.  For instance, three different versions of the millenium are linked to the second coming.  Most theologians of worth, as well as church historians, recognize only two remain.  Following the human disaster of WWI, theologians realized that certain specific events regarding the pre-millenial advent of Christ weren't plausible.  Since the tribulation has already happened, it's not possible to peg the immediate second coming to that event either.

Third, and most important, is that although there's a basis for the Second Coming in BOTH the old and new testaments, the problem with interpretation is the SEQUENCE of events involved.  

Jews got the First Coming wrong (and still do) because they didn't understand the sequence of events surrounding Jesus' first appearance among us.  Scriptures are quoted stating either that Jesus didn't arrive, that He wasn't who He said He was or that messiah is yet to come.  

Jews didn't read their own scripture and got it wrong.  Today, Christians don't read their own scripture either - and get it wrong all over again.

Neither will they listen to reproof because they have hardened their hearts and closed their minds.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The dangers are clearly stated.  You must not add to or take away from the writings of this book.  To deny that which is to come is as dangerous as adding resurrections and raptures.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

Looking for the rapture and looking for the coming of the Lord is not the same thing.

Jesus comes at the rapture whether you believe that of not. Of course that is not the second advent.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

 

First, Jesus is here. 

Ok

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

 

Second, when he comes he will first take out the tares and the wheat will remain. 

When he comes which time? 

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

 

This is the conquering King wiping out all who do not weep and mourn over iniquity.  Third, he will come as the Judge of all the earth.  That will be the time that the dead in Christ are raised.  It is only after the dead in Christ are raised that the rapture can occur.

How can what you say be correct? When comes at the end of wrath and judges the earth, he is setting up the kingdom of God on earth. There is no need to be raptured anywhere at that point.

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first. That is before the seals are opened. The seals are the final week. So the dead in Christ rise first. After that Christ comes for the alive believers. After the seals are opened and God turns His attention to His Chosen.

[The Light]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:41 PM, Montana Marv said:

 BTW, the 7 Bowl Judgments come out from the 7th Trumpet, meaning at least another 6 months before Armageddon, then the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Montana Marv. What you are saying is incorrect. Armageddon happens before the 7th trumpet, not after it.

[Montana Marv]

52 minutes ago, The Light said:

Hi Montana Marv. What you are saying is incorrect. Armageddon happens before the 7th trumpet, not after it.

The 7th Seal incorporates the 7 Trumpets; the 7th Trumpet incorporates the 7 Bowls. The 6th Bowl is when the Euphrates River dries up preparing a way for the army from the East to cross it.

After the 4th Trumpet is completed; Rev 8:13 - Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  Three Woes.  And incorporated in the 7th Trumpet is the third Woe.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

38 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The 7th Seal incorporates the 7 Trumpets; the 7th Trumpet incorporates the 7 Bowls. The 6th Bowl is when the Euphrates River dries up preparing a way for the army from the East to cross it.

After the 4th Trumpet is completed; Rev 8:13 - Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  Three Woes.  And incorporated in the 7th Trumpet is the third Woe.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown and is over when the 7th trumpet sounds.

The mystery of God is finished when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

At the 7th trumpet Jesus HAS already returned prior and had victory. Wrath is over. He sets His kingdom up on earth. That's the millennial kingdom when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is then the time of Judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is likely where Armageddon happens.

Revelation 10

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by The Light

[Montana Marv]

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

The 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown and is over when the 7th trumpet sounds.

The mystery of God is finished when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

At the 7th trumpet Jesus HAS already returned prior and had victory. Wrath is over. He sets His kingdom up on earth. That's the millennial kingdom when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is then the time of Judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is likely where Armageddon happens.

Revelation 10

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

 

The 7th Trumpet is a Woe, not a congratulations, it's done.

You must reread Rev 10:7 - But in the days when the 7th angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished....  Which mystery; is it the start of the Wedding Supper, most likely not; The finishing of giving out of rewards to the Bride at the Bema Seat of Christ, Most likely; Yet,Not the 2nd Coming, not a mystery;  it is something going on in Heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[The Light]

19 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The 7th Trumpet is a Woe, not a congratulations, it's done.

You must reread Rev 10:7 - But in the days when the 7th angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished....  Which mystery; is it the start of the Wedding Supper, most likely not; The finishing of giving out of rewards to the Bride at the Bema Seat of Christ, Most likely; Yet,Not the 2nd Coming, not a mystery;  it is something going on in Heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The 2nd Advent occurs during the trumpets. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. It's the start of a new millennial. Judgement occurs and rewards are given.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then wrath is about to begin.

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In Revelation 14 we are back in the seals. Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and as we see wrath is about to begin.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Montana Marv]

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

The 2nd Advent occurs during the trumpets. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. It's the start of a new millennial. Judgement occurs and rewards are given.

This is not a mystery of God.  It is known throughout Scripture.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[LiveWire]

I personally believe, if tomorrow began day one of the 7 year Tribulation, we would not know the difference because we are pre-Wrath, not pre-Tribulation.   Pre-Tribulation actually is not Scripturally sound, Pre-Wrath is what Jesus preached.

 

Jesus said, there would be marriage, normal life, nothing chaotic in the "beginning" of Tribulation.   But then He would expand and reveal that sometime after those days begin, days would grow to get harder for even the Elect.  So, Jesus was showing us a gradual but steady process from normal to becoming hectic.   Jesus put Birthing Pangs right up to possible year 2 or later before the actual Birth of Wrath.  the Man of Sin don't even reveal himself to well after midpoint and then the Mark and Number come into play.

 

I am 100% pro-pre-Wrath!

Edited April 9, 2023 by LiveWire