Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[bloom]

13 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

those saints are sleeping in their mansions , right?

[bloom]

Their mansions must be under the altar where they interact with Christ in their dreams. 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, bloom said:

those saints are sleeping in their mansions , right?

Mansion under construction, too noisy.  We are still on this earth.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

The second advent is when the King of kings, Jesus Christ, returns to earth to END the tribulation and set up His MK.

Hi FreeGrace, What you are saying does not agree with the Word. Yes, this is commonly taught by the Christians on TV, but it is in error.

I don't learn Scripture from watching TV.  I learn Scripture from READING it.

2 Thess 2:1 is perfectly clear about the order of the Second Advent and the resurrection.  As is 1 Cor 15:23.  I'll let you look them up.  I hope you read them.  If you can prove that they mean something else, please share.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

13 hours ago, The Light said:

I agree that the second advent is when Jesus returns to earth to set up the Millennial kingdom. However, I do not agree that is when the tribulation is over.

Rev 20:4-6 proves that the Second Advent is AFTER the trib.  Rev 19 is the preparation of King Jesus and all the saints already in heaven coming back.  Rev 20:1-6 is the setting up of the MK.  And the resurrection of the saved.

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus sets up the Mk at the end of the trumpets of wrath.

Revelation 7

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

But that is not the end of the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

I don't bother trying to figure out when any of the 3 sets of God's wrath occurs.  What I know is that all 3 sets will occur IN the tribulation.  And THEN the Second Advent, when King Jesus returns and ENDS the trib at the battle of Armageddon.

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the Second Advent.

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet of wrath is blown.

Again, Jesus returns to earth the SECOND time at the end of the trib, because He ends it decisively.

[ChristB4us]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure.  What I said.  

He did that when He ascended after Acts 1:8.  He was assuring His disciples that they would have a place in heaven when THEY die.  

There is absolutely nothing about a rapture trip to heaven in v.3.  I think you misread.

To say that "to be forever with the Lord" means a trip to heaven, that is just an assumption.  There is nothing in that verse showing a trip to heaven.  

Actually, Rev 20:4-6 proves that the singular resurrection of all believers is "when He comes" back (1 Cor 15:23). m In fact, John called the resurrection of the trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection.  And there will be one more resurrection; the resurrection of all the unsaved, which will occur after all the unsaved are killed at the end of the MK, at the battle of Gog and Magog.  They will be resurrected back into their physical NON-glorified and still mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment.

When they are cast into the LOF (Rev 20:15) their physical bodies will DIE AGAIN, which is why the LOF is also called the "second death".

Of course He will.  When He comes (1 Cor 15:23) all the saved will receive glorified immortal bodies.

So far, none of the verses you have quoted clearly show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

To those that is hidden, then the rapture is hidden.

Never hurts to ask Jesus Christ at that throne of grace if there is something you are not seeing.

Try these scriptures instead;  what is the consequence for not repenting from spiritual fornication and not shunning tongues for private use?

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

They are cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation; hence those who do repent, are received and thus not cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

Look at what the church is to do towards an unrepentant brother as they are to excommunicate him as giving him unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Will that not mirror what God will do at the pre great tribulation rapture event of those who do not repent and are found in iniquity still?

Look at what is required to sit at the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

That is what the Bridegroom will do in excommunicating saved believers that are workers of iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

See that "sit down" in the kingdom of Heaven?  See how those not ready are cast out to have their portions with unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth?

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Proof that there is a sitting down in Heaven for being found abiding in Him as this is to occur before the great tribulation comes by noting the excuses believers give.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

At the end of the great tribulation, with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem, how can He come as a thief in the night?  It is in these latter days now before the fiery calamity on the third of the earth comes ( Revelation 8:7 ) that sets up the coming great tribulation with the NWO & the mark of the beast system.

Indeed, how can believers make excuses not to go because they love their lives more on earth at the end of the great tribulation when the beast is waging war on them?

That is why you need wisdom from the Lord to align all of these scriptures to see the truth in His words that Jesus Christ is coming first as the Bridegroom for why He will judge His House first and those left behind will get stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes per the knowledge they did not have in not being ready, but stripes they will get because they are still His servants per Luke 12:40-49 as Hebrews 12:1-11 shows the consequence for not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily in being ready and willing to go as verse 6 testifies the Father will scourge every child He receives thus a whipping as aligning with those servants as left behind in Luke 12:40-49 for when that fire comes on a third of the earth.

Jesus says for believers to pray to Him for escape to not be ensnared by the cares of this life that the day would take them unaware before that fire comes on the earth.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

it is the every day life we are living now in these latter days and not the end of the great tribulation that is being described here for why we should pray for His help to be ready as well as being willing to go to escape what is coming on the earth.

We are warned not to be like Lot's wife and so Jesus is describing a non-great tribulation time that we are living in now for how we can buy & sell without the mark of the beast that can be ensnared by the cares of this life to not want to leave.

So ask Jesus Christ for wisdom as this is obviously hid from you, but all the scriptures align for why He is warning saved believers to be ready or else be left behind when that fiery calamity comes that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth for the coming great tribulation.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't learn Scripture from watching TV.  I learn Scripture from READING it.

2 Thess 2:1 is perfectly clear about the order of the Second Advent and the resurrection.  As is 1 Cor 15:23.  I'll let you look them up.  I hope you read them.  If you can prove that they mean something else, please share.

These verses are not about the second advent. They are about the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God begins.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

Amen.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't bother trying to figure out when any of the 3 sets of God's wrath occurs.  What I know is that all 3 sets will occur IN the tribulation.

This is the point that you are missing. None of Gods wrath occurs in the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal. There will be a rapture at that point. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. Then Jesus returns at the end of wrath and sets up His kingdom

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 And THEN the Second Advent, when King Jesus returns and ENDS the trib at the battle of Armageddon.

This is clearly the Second Advent.

Again, Jesus returns to earth the SECOND time at the end of the trib, because He ends it decisively.

These verses prove that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. These verses prove that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION we get the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. When he opens the 6th seal we get the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. That is marking where the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is. It is the 6th seal before wrath and not the second advent.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet of wrath is blown.

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, bloom said:

those saints are sleeping in their mansions , right?

Their physical bodies are "asleep", but their spirits are awake.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Those unrepentant saints and former believers who get left behind along with new believers after the rapture event will die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation.  This includes those who had died before the rapture event but had died in unrepentant iniquity and as former believers still as their spirits also will wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

To those that is hidden, then the rapture is hidden.

OK, so you are taking liberties to interpret what Jesus meant here.  Only Jesus has that privilege.  Not anyone else.  And whatever the parable teaches, it clearly isn't about a resurrected trip to heaven.  But since there are no verses that plainly teaches about a pretrib rapture trip to heaven, it's understandable that those who believe that theory must look for "hidden meanings" etc in order to support their baseless theory.

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Never hurts to ask Jesus Christ at that throne of grace if there is something you are not seeing.

I do that every day.  And the Bible speaks for itself.  There are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

Doesn't it seem at least a bit problematic that in EVERY passage that describes resurrection of believers, there are not descriptions of Jesus THEN taking these resurrected believers to heaven?  Not even a little bit??

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Try these scriptures instead;  what is the consequence for not repenting from spiritual fornication and not shunning tongues for private use?

Huh?  How does this relate to the theory of a pretrib rapture??  Or are you just deflecting?

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

They are cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation; hence those who do repent, are received and thus not cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

Look at what the church is to do towards an unrepentant brother as they are to excommunicate him as giving him unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Will that not mirror what God will do at the pre great tribulation rapture event of those who do not repent and are found in iniquity still?

And what does any of this have to do with the theory of a pretrib rapture?

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Look at what is required to sit at the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Again, this has NO relevance to the Marriage supper.  btw, to "look what is required" to attend the marriage supper, look no further than Rev 19:1-10.  It's all there.

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

That is what the Bridegroom will do in excommunicating saved believers that are workers of iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

What do you mean by "excommunicating saved believers"??  The Bible says that all believers are saved.  And all saved are permanently saved, so what's your point?

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

See that "sit down" in the kingdom of Heaven?  See how those not ready are cast out to have their portions with unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth?

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Still no evidence for the theory of a pretrib rapture.

13 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Proof that there is a sitting down in Heaven for being found abiding in Him as this is to occur before the great tribulation comes by noting the excuses believers give.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

At the end of the great tribulation, with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem, how can He come as a thief in the night?  It is in these latter days now before the fiery calamity on the third of the earth comes ( Revelation 8:7 ) that sets up the coming great tribulation with the NWO & the mark of the beast system.

Indeed, how can believers make excuses not to go because they love their lives more on earth at the end of the great tribulation when the beast is waging war on them?

That is why you need wisdom from the Lord to align all of these scriptures to see the truth in His words that Jesus Christ is coming first as the Bridegroom for why He will judge His House first and those left behind will get stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes per the knowledge they did not have in not being ready, but stripes they will get because they are still His servants per Luke 12:40-49 as Hebrews 12:1-11 shows the consequence for not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily in being ready and willing to go as verse 6 testifies the Father will scourge every child He receives thus a whipping as aligning with those servants as left behind in Luke 12:40-49 for when that fire comes on a third of the earth.

Jesus says for believers to pray to Him for escape to not be ensnared by the cares of this life that the day would take them unaware before that fire comes on the earth.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

it is the every day life we are living now in these latter days and not the end of the great tribulation that is being described here for why we should pray for His help to be ready as well as being willing to go to escape what is coming on the earth.

We are warned not to be like Lot's wife and so Jesus is describing a non-great tribulation time that we are living in now for how we can buy & sell without the mark of the beast that can be ensnared by the cares of this life to not want to leave.

So ask Jesus Christ for wisdom as this is obviously hid from you, but all the scriptures align for why He is warning saved believers to be ready or else be left behind when that fiery calamity comes that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth for the coming great tribulation.

Well, for the rest of your post, again, there is NO evidence for the pretrib rapture theory.

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, bloom said:

Their mansions must be under the altar where they interact with Christ in their dreams. 

The mansions is when they are resurrected as firstfruits to dwell in the City of God in Heaven as they will be like the angels that never die nor marry; hence vessels unto honor in His House for departing from iniquity, thus vessels of gold and silver.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Those after the great tribulation will be resurrected not as firstfruits but they that be Christ's at His coming; hence as vessels unto dishonor in His House as only the power of the second death will not be over them as they will need to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations as they serve the King of kings from all over the world as kings and priests in marrying and raising up the next generations coming in that thousand year reign of Christ on earth in Revelation 20:1-6.

So may every unrepentant believer and former believers go before that throne of grace for help to see the truth in His words to depart from iniquity so they too may be found abiding in Him to be taken as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.  Or else become castaways and resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House but still in His House after the great tribulation for not looking to Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & Friend in laying aside every weight & sin daily.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[FreeGrace]

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

I don't learn Scripture from watching TV.  I learn Scripture from READING it.

2 Thess 2:1 is perfectly clear about the order of the Second Advent and the resurrection.  As is 1 Cor 15:23.  I'll let you look them up.  I hope you read them.  If you can prove that they mean something else, please share.

These verses are not about the second advent. They are about the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God begins.

You are certainly free to your own opinion, but every mention of the "coming of the Lord" is a direct reference to the Second Advent.  

Jesus came to earth the FIRST time as a baby, to become the suffering servant and savior.  He will come back to earth a SECOND time as King of kings.

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

This is the point that you are missing. None of Gods wrath occurs in the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal. There will be a rapture at that point. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. Then Jesus returns at the end of wrath and sets up His kingdom

Actually, the ENTIRE tribulation is about God's wrath.  Second, the seal judgments are just that and the FIRST part of the tribulation, followed by another 2 sets of judgments.  Where oh where do you get your information from?

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

These verses prove that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

What verses?

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

These verses prove that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION we get the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. When he opens the 6th seal we get the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. That is marking where the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is. It is the 6th seal before wrath and not the second advent.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I think you are confused.

17 minutes ago, The Light said:

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet of wrath is blown.

None of what you quote supports your claims.  Since you deny that the mention of "the coming of the Lord" doesn't refer to the Second Advent, I see no point in further discussion.  Both 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 REFUTE your claims, so I understand why you need to deny them.

Until you can prove both verses refer to something else, there is no reason for further discussion.