Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

7 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Why would you think I don't?  Why are you judging me when you have NO facts to back you up?

Well, I've shown you where the Bible places the resurrection of all believers.  You are free to believe or reject them.  That's between you and God.

You will need to prove clearly that the verses I've shared cannot mean what I understand them to mean and show how they mean somethiing else.  And then you need to define that "something else".

If one believes in Post-Trib, they do no own those verses, they reject them.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[BibleWords]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:18 PM, The Light said:

Jesus comes at the rapture whether you believe that of not. Of course that is not the second advent.

Ok

When he comes which time? 

How can what you say be correct? When comes at the end of wrath and judges the earth, he is setting up the kingdom of God on earth. There is no need to be raptured anywhere at that point.

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first. That is before the seals are opened. The seals are the final week. So the dead in Christ rise first. After that Christ comes for the alive believers. After the seals are opened and God turns His attention to His Chosen.

Amen

[FreeGrace]

56 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

If one believes in Post-Trib, they do no own those verses, they reject them.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You cannot prove your theory.  Nor have you even tried.

Every mention of the "coming of the Lord" in the NT is a direct reference to the Second Advent.  How many prophecies from the OT dealt with the Messiah coming to the earth?  Two.  So why would any NT writer use "coming" to refer to some hidden trip to earth?  Wouldn't that confuse everyone?  Of course it would.

And it would force a change to the coming at the end of the Trib to be the THIRD coming.

The pretrib rapture has no verses to support it.  The singular resurrection of all believers DOES.  Which is when He comes back.

Those who really don't OWN verses are the pretribbers, who reject the fact that the "coming of the Lord" is about the Second Advent.  And Rev 20:4-6 where the Second Advent is plainly called the FIRST resurrection.

Scripture shows there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, and Rev 20 places them 1,000 years apart.

The dots are not difficult to connect.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, bloom said:

 

No left behinds at all, thats sobering,

Revelation 18th chapter testify to the voice of the bride and bridegroom not being heard in her any more, indicating the rapture has come and gone.  Also at the end of that chapter are the mention of the death of those saints left behind.

Revelation 14:1-5 testify to the 144,000 virgin men "redeemed" as in raptured from the earth that makes up His personal choir that follows Him around wherever He goes in Heaven and soon on earth for that 1000 year reign and afterwards.  This is not to say that they are the only ones raptured, but that out of those raptured, those 144,000 virgin men makes up His personal choir in Heaven.

Revelation 14:6-7 testify HOW that gospel will spread every where and that is by that 1st angel in tying in with Matthew 24:14 before the end comes which by that 2nd angel announces the fall of Babylon in Revelation 14:8 for when that end comes as Revelation 18th chapter gives that detail. 

Then that 3rd angel announces the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the coming NWO which is the lake of fire in Revelation 14:9-11.

In the face of those 3 angels setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth so that everyone knows the gospel and everyone knows the consequence for taking the mark of the beast as no one will have an excuse, Jesus's warning to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3:7-11 may be seen clearer in His promise to keep those that hold fast from that hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth thus not being on that earth to be tempted and thus raptured away.  Course those that do not hold fast but fallen into iniquity without repenting before the Bridegroom comes, will find themselves as castaway into the bed of the coming great tribulation as His warning to the church at Thyatira has been given in Revelation 2:18-25.  Those who repent of that spiritual fornication and that tongue for private use ( following a stranger's voice ) may find themselves as escaping that judgment.

That is the whole point of Jesus warning saved believers to be ready or else as they can be cut off and left behind for when He sends that fire on earth verse 49 of Luke 12:40-49.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Please show me HOW my understanding of certain verses "goes against" other verses, when NO other verses show a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven.

Please look in a mirror.  I was brought up believing in a pretrib rapture.  Then I began to study the Word and found no such teaching.  Just a lot of speculation and assumption.

Speculation in full view.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

What saved believer would be giving those excuses not to come when the King is holding that Marriage Supper in Heaven?  It can't be on earth because why not leave it if they are coming back to it on earth?  This is why Jesus referred to Lot's wife because on leaving everything we own behind as well as our lives, it is because they will be destroyed & thus staying behind is why those who loved their lives will die.  Jesus even warned believers to be ready to leave everything, and every one behind as they cannot go back and get something to leave with Him.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Where Jesus is now is when the redemption of the firstfruits of the resurrection will go.  That is how I am applying the reference below as aligning with the rapture event as it is an inheritance to live in that City of God in Heaven.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Montana Marv]

49 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You cannot prove your theory.  Nor have you even tried.

Every mention of the "coming of the Lord" in the NT is a direct reference to the Second Advent.  How many prophecies from the OT dealt with the Messiah coming to the earth?  Two.  So why would any NT writer use "coming" to refer to some hidden trip to earth?  Wouldn't that confuse everyone?  Of course it would.

And it would force a change to the coming at the end of the Trib to be the THIRD coming.

The pretrib rapture has no verses to support it.  The singular resurrection of all believers DOES.  Which is when He comes back.

Those who really don't OWN verses are the pretribbers, who reject the fact that the "coming of the Lord" is about the Second Advent.  And Rev 20:4-6 where the Second Advent is plainly called the FIRST resurrection.

Scripture shows there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, and Rev 20 places them 1,000 years apart.

The dots are not difficult to connect.

You know more than Jesus Christ does.  Because He does not know when the Bridegroom will come.  And yet you do.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

Connect the dots.

[FreeGrace]

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

What saved believer would be giving those excuses not to come when the King is holding that Marriage Supper in Heaven?

You are only speculating that the "kingdom of God" means heaven.  The MK is also the kingdom of God.  And there is no evidence for the marriage supper being IN heaven.

What Rev 19 clearly shows is that there is preparation for the wedding supper in heaven.  That's all.  Immediately after that preparation, the prepared saints will accompany Jesus back to earth, for the resurrection and service in the MK.

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

  It can't be on earth because why not leave it if they are coming back to it on earth? 

I don't understand your question.  Maybe you could explain it some.

Then, show some evidence that it will be in heaven.  Not just claims about it.

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

This is why Jesus referred to Lot's wife because on leaving everything we own behind as well as our lives, it is because they will be destroyed & thus staying behind is why those who loved their lives will die.  Jesus even warned believers to be ready to leave everything, and every one behind as they cannot go back and get something to leave with Him.

This doesn't support your belief.

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Nothing about a resurrection and then trip up to heaven.

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Where Jesus is now is when the redemption of the firstfruits of the resurrection will go.

Read 1 Cor 15:23.  Jesus IS the "firstfruits" of resurrection.  Followed by "those who belong to Him", an OBVIOUS reference to ALL saved people inwill history, and when it   will occur, which is at the Second Advent, or "when He comes". 

23 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

  That is how I am applying the reference below as aligning with the rapture event as it is an inheritance to live in that City of God in Heaven.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was assuring His 11 disciples that they ALL would have a place in heaven when they died.  

v.1 is an encouragement to keep believing in Him.

v.2 is the assurance that they would have a place in heaven.

v.3 is the promise that when Jesus returns to earth, they will be securely with Him.

Nothing about a rapture trip to heaven.

[FreeGrace]

22 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

You know more than Jesus Christ does.

Well, that's a pretty silly claim.  I BELIEVE what Jesus teaches.

22 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

  Because He does not know when the Bridegroom will come.  And yet you do.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

Connect the dots.

Again, if you would only CAREFULLY read what He said about it.

Mark 13:32 - “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This isn't difficult.  Jesus was speaking of a specific DAY and HOUR of the DAY.

And I don't know what calendar day nor the hour in which the Second Advent will occur.  That is what Jesus was talking about.  It is very clear.

But, I have shown you where the Bible SAYS the resurrection of the saved will be AT the Second Advent.

Please be more careful when you read Scripture.

[The Light]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You are certainly free to your own opinion, but every mention of the "coming of the Lord" is a direct reference to the Second Advent.  

Absolutely and entirely false. Here is a coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits. It is not the second advent.

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Jesus came to earth the FIRST time as a baby, to become the suffering servant and savior.  He will come back to earth a SECOND time as King of kings.

I guess if you want to skip when He comes for the dead in Christ, and if you skip when He returns for the Church, and if you skip when He comes for the 144,000 first fruits and then when He returns for the second harvest, you might be right. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, the ENTIRE tribulation is about God's wrath.  Second, the seal judgments are just that and the FIRST part of the tribulation, followed by another 2 sets of judgments.  Where oh where do you get your information from?

The scripture has already proved that the tribulation is over before Gods wrath begins. If you can't accept what is written what are you standing on but sand. Let's prove again you are incorrect.

1 Thes 5

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Your point of view, which does not agree with scripture has believers going through the wrath of God. Scripture tells us clearly that we are not appointed to wrath. Therefore, your view has to be incorrect.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What verses?

I think you are confused.

I know you are confused.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

None of what you quote supports your claims.  Since you deny that the mention of "the coming of the Lord" doesn't refer to the Second Advent, I see no point in further discussion.

Everything I have said, I have supported with the Word of God. The fact that you see no point in further discussion should tell your spirit something.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Both 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 REFUTE your claims, so I understand why you need to deny them.

I already proved you to be in error. Why would I need to deny anything. 1 Cor 15:23 is the second harvest that occurs before wrath. We see that here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2 proves that the gathering from heaven and earth happens before the day of the Lord.

2 Thes 2

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Until you can prove both verses refer to something else, there is no reason for further discussion.

What do I need to prove. The verses speak for themselves. Matthew 24 tells us IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars happen and then Jesus sends His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. The sixth seal tells us that the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars happen and then the wrath of God begins.

Simple equation and results are right there. Conclusion, immediately after the tribulation the signs of the sun, moon and stars happens, the angels gather the elect and wrath begins. Not the second advent where Jesus sets up His kingdom. It is a harvest before wrath as believers are not appointed to wrath.

[FreeGrace]

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

You are certainly free to your own opinion, but every mention of the "coming of the Lord" is a direct reference to the Second Advent. 

Absolutely and entirely false. Here is a coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits. It is not the second advent.

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

What makes you think this passage shows Jesus coming for believers, much less taking them back to heaven?  Rev 14 is a "look ahead" vision of John.  Not a rapture.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

I guess if you want to skip when He comes for the dead in Christ, and if you skip when He returns for the Church, and if you skip when He comes for the 144,000 first fruits and then when He returns for the second harvest, you might be right.

Please fully explain 1 Cor 15:23 then.  Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body, followed by "those who belong to Him" which will be "when He comes".

So, explain how "those who belong to him" CANNOT include every saved person in human history, and explain how "when He comes" CANNOT be the second advent.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

The scripture has already proved that the tribulation is over before Gods wrath begins.

Well, you haven't.  So please share the verses that make this clear.  Thanks.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

If you can't accept what is written what are you standing on but sand. Let's prove again you are incorrect.

What I can't accept is any claim that doesn't include clear verses.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

1 Thes 5

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Your point of view, which does not agree with scripture has believers going through the wrath of God.

I showed from Scripture that God's wrath is toward sin.  And believers sin.  Col 3:1-10

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Scripture tells us clearly that we are not appointed to wrath. Therefore, your view has to be incorrect.

So you just ignore the warning in Col 3:1-10?  You simply misunderstand what "not appointed us to wrath" means.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Everything I have said, I have supported with the Word of God.

No you haven't.  

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

The fact that you see no point in further discussion should tell your spirit something.

Yes, it tells me that you have no evidence for a pretrib rapture/trip to heaven.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

I already proved you to be in error.

No, your claim is not proof.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Why would I need to deny anything. 1 Cor 15:23 is the second harvest that occurs before wrath. We see that here.

There are NO "harvests" associated with resurrecrtion.  1 Cor 15:23 uses "firstfruits" to mean FIRST to receive a glorified body.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Do you actually listen to the words here?  There is no harvest/rapture.  But there is a whole lot of blood and "wrath of God".

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 Thes 2 proves that the gathering from heaven and earth happens before the day of the Lord.

2 Thes 2

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What do I need to prove.

Your entire view of things.  That's what.  In v.1 we see the Second Advent, followed by the "gathering" which is the same as 1 Thess 4.  Refutes your view totally.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

The verses speak for themselves.

Well, I do agree with you here.

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24 tells us IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars happen and then Jesus sends His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. The sixth seal tells us that the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars happen and then the wrath of God begins.

Well, let's just look at that 6th seal and see what it SAYS.  Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 

13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 

14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I see nothing here about what you keep claiming.

In fact, the "4 horsemen of the apocalypse" is the beginning of the wrath.  Obviously.

 

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

Simple equation and results are right there. Conclusion, immediately after the tribulation the signs of the sun, moon and stars happens, the angels gather the elect and wrath begins. Not the second advent where Jesus sets up His kingdom. It is a harvest before wrath as believers are not appointed to wrath.

C