Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

14 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It's referring to their physical bodies that are in the ground.  

Yes like the two prophets their bodies had already began to decompose and return to the dust.. but the spirit of life from God entered in to them and they were resurrected.. at this point they put on immortality as it says the body that is down is not that body that shall be… the two prophets were changed at the same time the living received their glorified bodies - all at the same time at the last trumpet… then these glorified bodies rose up into heaven and will be coming back that same day with all his other saints at the second coming… They only go to heaven and come back to the earth  that very same day

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

OK, DA, you know the drill.  Where is "it written"?  That's the only way to believe what people claim.  Just like the Bereans.

Let's see all these "lots of Scripture".

I wonder will just ONE be enough?  Or two?  10?

Absolutely just ONE.  However, according to the "drill", the verse must be unambiguous.  That means no possibility of other meanings.

For example, when Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, there is no other way to understand what He said.  He was clearly teaching eternal security.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

   There will be no amount that will be enough, as it doesn't FIT with what you believe...BUT in the interest of GODS TRUTH.

For shame.  I'm a straight shooter.  If you have even just one verse that is unambiguous, I'll believe it.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

IT'S GONNA BE L-E-N-G-T-H-Y

You mean the "just one verse" that is unambiguous?   

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

1. Jesus from the beginning of His ministry told us He would be doing that very thing.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And He closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And He began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Did you not actually read the last verse; 21?  He SAID 'this day the Scripture is fulfilled in your ears'.  Did He resurrect anyone in the synagogue, or take anyone to heaven that day?  No, He did not.  Nor did He say anything about taking any resurrected believers to heaven, ever.

So, this passage is not unambiguous.  And it doesn't even address what you are claiming it does.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

2. He spoke of those under the New Covenant being raised up and following Him to be where was and HE said at that time He would receive them unto HIMSELF  NOT like when He sends out the angels to gather.

Verse please?  Remember, that's what I was asking for.  An unambiguous verse.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

iow, Pete, you can't come to heaven now, but you WILL die later on, and then you will be in heaven.  As ALL saints who die go.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What may not be obvious to many is that v.2 is simply an affirmation guarantee to all of the 11 disciples that they would go to heaven.  Because Jesus would prepare a place for them. That is a promise of eternal security. 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

3.  He spoke of it again when speaking to Martha before Lazarus was resurrected.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

OLD COVENANT ABOUT TO HAVE ITS LAST DAY....

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

(THAT WOULD BE THOSE WHO WERE ASLEEP AT THAT TIME, IN THE GRAVE, PAYING THE PENALTY OF DEATH UNDER THE LAW, THE PLACE HE WILL BE THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM)

I know you love to quote bits and pieces of this passage, but it is clear that you are not clear on what Jesus meant.  "though he were dead, yet shall he live" refers to the fact that all believers will physically die, their souls continue to live on and ultimately they will have a glorified immortal resurrection body.  

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This is true ultimately.  First, our corrupted physical body is "appointed" to die once, according to Heb 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

But the soul lives on in heaven, awaiting the second advent and resurrection of their physical body changed to be like Jesus' resurrection body.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

4.  We see those who slept being led up to heaven when He ascended.

He was taking all the OT saints who were in Paradise in Hades to heaven.  This is not a resurrection.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

We see their graves opened. We know they were not raised up in flesh and blood bodies.

Rather, there is NO MENTION of any of them receiving a glorified immortal body.

Even Lazarus wasn't glorified, because the Pharisees were planning to kill him.  John 12

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

We know after Christ made the whole lump holy and the first fruits of God were raised and ever since it has been every man in his own order.

Are you trying to explain 1 Cor 15:23?  It's much simpler than wht you've written.

Jesus was the first to receive a glorifed resurrection body and ALL believers from all time will receive theirs "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.

See how simple it is?

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This is the passage that refers to the OT souls in Paradise being taken to heaven.  It has nothing to do with resurrection.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These people were raised back to life again, but NOT resurrection life.  There is no evidence for such a speculation.  Remember Paul who brought Eutycus back to life?  His physical body received life again.  But not resurrection life.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(fyi  THOSE IN THE GRAVES WERE WASHED CLEAN UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, UNLIKE THE DEAD WHO GO INTO THE GRAVES NOW BECAUSE THEY DON'T COME TO FAITH)

??  Please clarify.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

What is your point here?  Lots of verses, but why quote them?

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is 1 Cor 15:23.  It says all believers will be resurrected "when He comes".

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

Paul is noting that there will be surviving believers at the Second Advent.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

6.   We know we are raised up and will be like Him when we will see Him and He was raised up in body.

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

5319. phaneroó ►
Strong's Concordance
phaneroó: to make visible, make clear
Original Word: φανερόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phaneroó
Phonetic Spelling: (fan-er-o'-o)
Definition: to make visible, make clear
Usage: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known.
HELPS Word-studies
5319 phaneróō (from 5457 /phṓs, "light") – properly, illumine, make manifest (visible); (figuratively) make plain, in open view; to become apparent ("graspable").

5319 /phaneróō ("become manifest") in 1 Jn 3:2

1 Jn 3:2: "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that if (Gk ean) He becomes manifest (5319 /phaneróō), we will be like Him, because (hoti) we will see Him just as (Gk kathōs) He is

??  Please make a point or clarify.

Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes like the two prophets their bodies had already began to decompose and return to the dust.. but the spirit of life from God entered in to them and they were resurrected.. at this point they put on immortality as it says the body that is down is not that body that shall be… the two prophets were changed at the same time the living received their glorified bodies - all at the same time at the last trumpet… then these glorified bodies rose up into heaven and will be coming back that same day with all his other saints at the second coming… They only go to heaven and come back to the earth  that very same day

I believe Enoch and Elijah have their turn at physical death and then return to heaven, awaiting for the resurrection where ALL believers will receive glorified immortal bodies.  There is no mention in the text that they had glorified bodies.

[DeighAnn]

33 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

No they are the dead in Christ not dead in sin

I'M not the one who WROTE it. 

YOU can say that all day long, but WHEN IT COMES TO PROVING IT, you have bupkis.  

because THAT ISN'T what is written, is it?  It says THE MORTAL are raised up. 


Remember this?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?


if YOU DO, then you would know there is no way have received THE GIFT OF SALVATION

AND TO BE DEAD in Christ.  Those who are dead in Christ are spiritually dead.  

IF you would read that there is a resurrection OF BOTH the just and the unjust DEAD, you would realize that it is the dead THAT are being raised up not the living.   

WHY the HARD FIGHT to make A SINGLE resurrection of PLURAL into 
PLURAL RESURRECTS OF SINGLES?  




There IS NO PENALTY for us to pay.  So there is NO DEATH for us to suffer.  

THE flesh and blood body dies because IT WAS CORRUPTED at the fall so NO MATTER what happens that body goes back to dust. 

That body going back to dust just BRINGS, QUICKENS the body that can ONLY DIE in the LOF.  

Every man one death.  EXCEPT when the CHANGE OF REALMS COMES WITH THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...at which point THE alive and remaining HAVE TO BE CHANGED.  That is why pre trib has it all wrong.  There is NO REASON FOR a body to be changed before that point.  We all have a race set before us to run, the race isn't cut short for anyone, if it was it would have to be cut short for EVERYONE.  

SO we don't die because WE GO TO THE PLACE OF THE LIVING GOD. 

Those without the gift of Salvation don't die either THEY GO TO THE PLACE OF THE DEAD.  Christ the FIRST to resurrect FROM THERE and taking all those who believed with Him to heaven.  THE REDEEMED OF THE EARTH.  Those GOD GAVE HIM OF WHICH HE WOULD LOSE NONE.  maybe, IDK on those last two.  But something....

.

think about that.  WE HAVE ATTAINED to ETERNAL LIFE when we are RAISED UP.   


NOW follow that line of thought and EXPLAIN to yourself

HOW YOU GO FROM BEING IMMORTAL

to MORTAL.  

WHO IS RAISED UP WHEN CHRIST RETURNS???

THE DEAD, THE MORTAL, THE 'LIFELESS'

NOT THE immortal, LIVING, and returning with AND RISEN WITH CHRIST.  
 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is it written WILL GOD RAISE UP, WHEN HE RETURNS, THE LIVING, THE IMMORTAL?

NO WHERE.




AGAIN, not my words, I am just the one BELIEVING them as they are written WITHOUT EXCUSE, without explanation.  

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

59 minutes ago, The Light said:

The second rapture will take place after antichrist is revealed.

The rapture of the Church will occur when you think not.

There's not 2 raptures... there is one.

 

Quote

WHEN IT COMES TO PROVING IT, you have bupkis.  

I always heard it was bumpkis... how can we know if it's bupkis or bumpkis?

Is there like an association that manages this sort of thing?
 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Shilohsfoal]

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I'M not the one who WROTE it. 

YOU can say that all day long, but WHEN IT COMES TO PROVING IT, you have bupkis.  

because THAT ISN'T what is written, is it?  It says THE MORTAL are raised up. 


Remember this?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?


if YOU DO, then you would know there is no way have received THE GIFT OF SALVATION

AND TO BE DEAD in Christ.  Those who are dead in Christ are spiritually dead.  

IF you would read that there is a resurrection OF BOTH the just and the unjust DEAD, you would realize that it is the dead THAT are being raised up not the living.   

WHY the HARD FIGHT to make A SINGLE resurrection of PLURAL into 
PLURAL RESURRECTS OF SINGLES?  




There IS NO PENALTY for us to pay.  So there is NO DEATH for us to suffer.  

THE flesh and blood body dies because IT WAS CORRUPTED at the fall so NO MATTER what happens that body goes back to dust. 

That body going back to dust just BRINGS, QUICKENS the body that can ONLY DIE in the LOF.  

Every man one death.  EXCEPT when the CHANGE OF REALMS COMES WITH THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...at which point THE alive and remaining HAVE TO BE CHANGED.  That is why pre trib has it all wrong.  There is NO REASON FOR a body to be changed before that point.  We all have a race set before us to run, the race isn't cut short for anyone, if it was it would have to be cut short for EVERYONE.  

SO we don't die because WE GO TO THE PLACE OF THE LIVING GOD. 

Those without the gift of Salvation don't die either THEY GO TO THE PLACE OF THE DEAD.  Christ the FIRST to resurrect FROM THERE and taking all those who believed with Him to heaven.  THE REDEEMED OF THE EARTH.  Those GOD GAVE HIM OF WHICH HE WOULD LOSE NONE.  maybe, IDK on those last two.  But something....

.

think about that.  WE HAVE ATTAINED to ETERNAL LIFE when we are RAISED UP.   


NOW follow that line of thought and EXPLAIN to yourself

HOW YOU GO FROM BEING IMMORTAL

to MORTAL.  

WHO IS RAISED UP WHEN CHRIST RETURNS???

THE DEAD, THE MORTAL, THE 'LIFELESS'

NOT THE immortal, LIVING, and returning with AND RISEN WITH CHRIST.  
 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is it written WILL GOD RAISE UP, WHEN HE RETURNS, THE LIVING, THE IMMORTAL?

NO WHERE.




AGAIN, not my words, I am just the one BELIEVING them as they are written WITHOUT EXCUSE, without explanation.  

Sounds like you believe your immortal.

Paul said the mortal does not become immortal till the last trump.Fat as I understand,that hasn't happened yet,so I'm.not sure how you think anyone other than Christ has become immortal.

 

⁵¹ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

⁵³ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

⁵⁴ So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[transmogrified]

28 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There is no mention in the text that they had glorified bodies.

The seventh trumpet sounded  when  they went up.. it’s at the last trump EVERYBODY gets immortal bodies .. everybody includes the two prophets.

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Absolutely just ONE.  However, according to the "drill", the verse must be unambiguous.  That means no possibility of other meanings.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

ABSOLUTELY ONE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, FOR SURE AND FOR REAL, NO OTHER WAY TO READ IT, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, PERFECT ANSWER TO YOUR REQUEST

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

 3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."

 dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal 

NAME ME ONE PERSON  WHO HAS COME TO FAITH AND HAS ATTAINED ETERNAL LIFE
THAT THOSE WORDS FIT


CAN YOU NAME ANY SOULS WHO HAVE never come to faith those words would fit?  Nothing NO MATTER HOW CRYSTAL CLEAR, no matter how much it PERFECTLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION

IS EVER GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU.  THAT IS MY ONE proof FOR YOU TODAY.  


HOW do you go from having attained IMMORTALITY, to 
being RAISED UP MORTAL?


BOTH THE JUST AND THE UNJUST ARE RAISED UP AND THEY ARE RAISED UP AT THE SAME TIME AND THEY ARE ALL RAISED UP FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD, A PLACE WE NEVER EVEN SEE.  Till you get that right nothing new can come...

 

15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


 

 

[DeighAnn]

49 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What may not be obvious to many is that v.2 is simply an affirmation guarantee to all of the 11 disciples that they would go to heaven.  Because Jesus would prepare a place for them. That is a promise of eternal security. 

PERFECT.  PROBLEM SOLVED.  QUESTION ANSWERED 

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

DO WE LEAVE THAT glory BEHIND AND COME BACK FOR IT?  OR ARE WE RAISED WITH IT?

Wait, can't be raised with it as that would mean we would be raised in power and incorruption....and that would also mean in a body,


23I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am;

that they may behold my glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me.

26And I have declared unto them Thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

These people were raised back to life again, but NOT resurrection life.  There is no evidence for such a speculation.  Remember Paul who brought Eutycus back to life?  His physical body received life again.  But not resurrection life.

Sure