Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OneLight]

Onelight:

First, it's awesome you have studied this for so long. There is great disrespect in our younger and less learned people these days.

REV 11 does not have to be 2 Christian witness. In fact when the disciples asked Jesus if they should send fire on a group that did not receive them, Jesus said you know not what spirit you are of. These two wittiness display very destructive power that we are not given to use today.

The two are not the same. The disciples are just men learning to follow His way. The Two Witnesses are sent by God Himself to do His will dueing the tribulation. Not even close enough to call it apples and oranges.

When do the 144,000 get taken?

They appear in Heaven Rev 14:3. When exactly that is during the seven year period I honestly don't know. It's before the Vials are released which just almost come short of demolishing the whole planet.

Revelation 14:1-5 actually states:

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Mount Zion is in Jerusalem, not heaven.

If all 2+ billion Christians (Hopefully lots more) were here, we are never mentioned, never do anything, never have a job, nothing. The creatures that come from the pit sting everyone unless they are the 144,000 sealed.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

There would be no reason we should have to suffer one of God's Trumpets.

As for exact times, there is seven years given for God to complete his work and removal of sinful man. We don't need to be here for any of it.

Jesus Is Lord.

How did the angel of death pass over the Hebrews in Egypt? Have we not the seal of the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13-14

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Do we not have the seal of God already? Don't fear, He did, does and will always protect us.

[Montana Marv]

Really the Rapture was taught by the early Church.

2 Thes 2 verifies this. Some had thought they had missed it. But Paul corrects them. It was not about the Second Coming, for Christ did not yet appear for all to see.

The harpozo (Rapture) in inemant. It can happen at any time. The dead in Christ shall rise first, Then we who are still alive will meet them in the air and so be with the Lord forever.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

I just had to hide a lot of posts that contained personal attacks and insults. Too bad, because some of the information in the posts were well thought out and sound.

If anyone posts against the ToS, their post will be removed.

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

[back2thebible]

Wow! what a heated debate!.......personally the whole doctrine of the rapture poses no threat until the antichrist shows up, most Christians debating the issue will more than likely see at that time, the pretrib rapture was incorrect, but as most of you know there are millions of unread christians that simply follow what they're told, and if over time you are repeatedly told Jesus comes first and the antichrist second

they will unknowingly follow the wrong Christ, simply because they did not know enough of the scriptures to understand,

biblically Jesus and the disciples give us warnings about the antichrist and not to follow him or receive his mark

these warnings and scripture concerning the antichrist were for the church, not for people who some how missed the boat, and there is some unbiblical second curtian call

[Montana Marv]

Wow! what a heated debate!.......personally the whole doctrine of the rapture poses no threat until the antichrist shows up, most Christians debating the issue will more than likely see at that time, the pretrib rapture was incorrect, but as most of you know there are millions of unread christians that simply follow what they're told, and if over time you are repeatedly told Jesus come first and the antichrist second

they will unknowingly follow the wrong Christ, simply because they did not know enough of the scriptures to understand,

biblically Jesus and the disciples give us warnings about the antichrist and not to follow him or receive his mark

these warnings and scripture concerning the antichrist were for the church, not for people who some how missed the boat, and there is some unbiblical second curtian call

back2thebible

True the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) comes before the Second Coming of Christ (the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords). The main question is, when does the Bridegroom retrieve His Bride. Scripture says we meet him in the air, it does not say we meet Him at His Return. Only God the Father knows when the Rapture will occur. Its timing is not revealed in Scripture. There are no markers signifying this event. Just that someone must be removed, then the A/C can make his appearance. This 70th week of Daniel is still yet future. The closest marker for the 70th week is the war of Ezk 38 and 39. The focus now returns back to Israel.

Our Death is imminent, no guarntees we will live another 1 or 2 years, or the next few days. So to say that God will bring me through something in our future is wishful thinking, It takes out to live one day at a time, for we do not know what tomorrow will bring. Yes He may, and Yes He may not. So the Rapture is imminent, it will be totally unexpected. It can happen tomorrow, or a year from now. Be Ready (Now), for you do not know when the Bridegroom will come. Be ready now, for we do not know when our death will occur. Putting the Rapture off until well into the 70th Week provide individuals with "not much time is left"; you have a chance to get your act todgether.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Seemypdf]

Hello all and God bless, please see my PDF. *** removed link *** it is a Timeline that you don't want to miss.

*** It is best that you get to know us before directing anyone to your teachings. You can introduce yourself in the Welcome Forum. The site you linked to requires one to join first, so I removed the link ***

Edited April 4, 2013 by OneLight

[back2thebible]

Wow! what a heated debate!.......personally the whole doctrine of the rapture poses no threat until the antichrist shows up, most Christians debating the issue will more than likely see at that time, the pretrib rapture was incorrect, but as most of you know there are millions of unread christians that simply follow what they're told, and if over time you are repeatedly told Jesus come first and the antichrist second

they will unknowingly follow the wrong Christ, simply because they did not know enough of the scriptures to understand,

biblically Jesus and the disciples give us warnings about the antichrist and not to follow him or receive his mark

these warnings and scripture concerning the antichrist were for the church, not for people who some how missed the boat, and there is some unbiblical second curtian call

back2thebible

True the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) comes before the Second Coming of Christ (the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords). The main question is, when does the Bridegroom retrieve His Bride. Scripture says we meet him in the air, it does not say we meet Him at His Return. Only God the Father knows when the Rapture will occur. Its timing is not revealed in Scripture. There are no markers signifying this event. Just that someone must be removed, then the A/C can make his appearance. This 70th week of Daniel is still yet future. The closest marker for the 70th week is the war of Ezk 38 and 39. The focus now returns back to Israel.

Our Death is imminent, no guarntees we will live another 1 or 2 years, or the next few days. So to say that God will bring me through something in our future is wishful thinking, It takes out to live one day at a time, for we do not know what tomorrow will bring. Yes He may, and Yes He may not. So the Rapture is imminent, it will be totally unexpected. It can happen tomorrow, or a year from now. Be Ready (Now), for you do not know when the Bridegroom will come. Be ready now, for we do not know when our death will occur. Putting the Rapture off until well into the 70th Week provide individuals with "not much time is left"; you have a chance to get your act todgether.

In Christ

Montana Marv

actually all the prophets mention the sun going black and the moon turning red before his return

[Montana Marv]

needed a change from the last poster.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

People are going to defend their theory till the cows come home.No one is going to get anywhere.Everyone is going to be on the computer till 3AM trying to defend what their belief is.Maybe many here just like the sake of debating and debating and debating and debating.

[OakWood]

I'm exhausted. This thread is fascinating and as a fence-sitter, I'm still none-the-wiser.

I just see these possibilities:

1/ You're a post or mid-tribber but the rapture occurs pre-trib.

Outcome: You get raptured. Phew!

2/ You're a pre-tribber but the rapture occurs later.

Outcome: There is no reason why you would fall for the lies of the anti-Christ/Beast because you would know about the two witnesses and there would be someone trying to force you or persuade you to take a mark, not to mention all the other 'signs of the times'.

3/ The rapture occurs pre-trib, but you're not raptured

Outcome: Now this would be scary. Maybe your faith wasn't strong enough. You still have a chance though but it's going to be tough. Hold onto your hat!

I find this subject fascinating but we're almost turning it into a competitive sport here.