The First Resurrection

[missmuffet]

48 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

First/protos has different meanings: "This" only "nullifies" the meaning YOU prefer. Protos often means first in rank, honor, or authority, and that is the only meaning that fits the context of Rev. 20:5. Jesus was the ONLY "first" resurrection in terms of time; with all the other resurrections out of the grave unto life -- the one shortly after his own resurrection, the one at the parousia/2nd coming, and the Rev. 20:4 one after the Beast is destroyed -- these can only refer to first in preeminence.

For those who claim that the redeemed saints Jesus preached to "in Hades/prison" were required to die twice lacks any merit whatsoever. Completely unscriptural. When Lazarus was resurrected, he was resurrected still in sin, because Christ's final sacrifice had not yet been made. That was NOT the case with those He preached to in Hades. They were resurrected in righteousness, and could not justifiably die again.
 

I do not believe my post indicated what you claim. The redeemed saints would not be in Hades they would be in paradise. There were two sections. One section which is paradise for the saved the other Hades for the unsaved. 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

First/protos has different meanings: "This" only "nullifies" the meaning YOU prefer. Protos often means first in rank, honor, or authority, and that is the only meaning that fits the context of Rev. 20:5. Jesus was the ONLY "first" resurrection in terms of time; with all the other resurrections out of the grave unto life -- the one shortly after his own resurrection, the one at the parousia/2nd coming, and the Rev. 20:4 one after the Beast is destroyed -- these can only refer to first in preeminence.

For those who claim that the redeemed saints Jesus preached to "in Hades/prison" were required to die twice lacks any merit whatsoever. Completely unscriptural. When Lazarus was resurrected, he was resurrected still in sin, because Christ's final sacrifice had not yet been made. That was NOT the case with those He preached to in Hades. They were resurrected in righteousness, and could not justifiably die again.
 

Hi William,

Rev. 20:5 itself contains a numerical order: the First Resurrection and one where after a thousand years the rest of the dead live again. These are two resurrections. So the CONTEXT dictates we count to --2. This is why theologians have called this the first general resurrection.

Still not convinced? The next verse says:

 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Now, anyone raised to life and died again, like Lazarus (not Jesus) could have gone back to a life of sin and died in them. So, if they were part of the first resurrection they could not be subjected to the power of the second death even if they died in their sins. NOT!

Are you indicating the 2nd coming has already happened? If so please share the date.

I have already responded regarding the Matt. 27 passage. No resurrection

As for your second paragraph, it must be something said by someone else.

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I do not believe my post indicated what you claim. The redeemed saints would not be in Hades they would be in paradise. There were two sections. One section which is paradise for the saved the other Hades for the unsaved. 

Shalom, missmuffet.

That's a theological and philosophical position that has LITTLE merit in Scripture. Someone has taken (1) the story of the rich man and Lazarus, (2) the unknown nature of Paradise, and (3) the idea that Sh'owl (Sheol) and its Greek eqivalent, Hadees (Hades), refer to a REALM of the dead and has merged them together into this philosophy.

HOWEVER, when one learns that "Sh'owl" means "asked about" and "Hadees" means "unseen" and that both refer to where the dead are BURIED, then that's one piece of the puzzle that is missing from this philosophy. 

When one comes to understand that the word "paradise," a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos," which in turn is a transliteration of the Hebrew word "pardeec," means "a PARK," especially a "PARK of trees," such as an "ORCHARD," then one must face the fact that it would be difficult to place a park of trees in the center of the earth! That's another piece of the puzzle missing from this philosophy.

And, when one understands that the facts about the account of the rich man and Lazarus (or Eleazar) point out that (1) Lazarus has a finger that may be dipped in water and that (2) the rich man has eyes to see, (3) ears to hear, (4) a tongue that could experience pain in the fire, and that he (5) could be tormented in the flame, it should dawn on the reader that this person is already RESURRECTED as a physical body! That takes the third piece out of the philosophy, and the philosophy fails.

A couple of other passages of Scripture are used in this philosophy: First, whoever began this philosophy also took the passages of Ephesians 4:8, 9 and 1 Peter 3:19 and a few others. I'll talk about those in another post.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

..Because as the Father has life in himself,
so has He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
And has given Him authority to execute judgement also...
Marvel not at this for the hour is coming, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
and shall come forth; they that have done good
unto the resurrection of life; Rev 20:4-5
and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of condemnation. Rev 20:13-15

John 5:24-29
[Acts 24:15, Rev 20:4-15]

Edited June 30, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Retrobyter]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:06 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

However, NOT ALL are in the graves.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all,....` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Those verses DO NOT mean that you've already arrived! They mean that you are already IN THE PROCESS of going there! One must check the meaning of the verbs against the tenses of the verbs! Most translators have used the tenses only and have NOT checked the meaning of the verbs themselves!

Also, these verses are NEBULOUS about the timing! The timing of the arrival "to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" was not important in this context. Rather, it was the assured fact that one was GOING to this mountain and the city.

The holy sleepers may indeed still be in their graves when the Messiah returns.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/27/2021 at 4:55 PM, Uriah said:

Hi William,

Rev. 20:5 itself contains a numerical order: the First Resurrection and one where after a thousand years the rest of the dead live again. These are two resurrections. So the CONTEXT dictates we count to --2. This is why theologians have called this the first general resurrection.

Still not convinced? The next verse says:

 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Now, anyone raised to life and died again, like Lazarus (not Jesus) could have gone back to a life of sin and died in them. So, if they were part of the first resurrection they could not be subjected to the power of the second death even if they died in their sins. NOT!

Are you indicating the 2nd coming has already happened? If so please share the date.

I have already responded regarding the Matt. 27 passage. No resurrection

As for your second paragraph, it must be something said by someone else.

Shalom, Uriah.

The belief that Matthew 27:45-54 shows no resurrection is not founded in a correct understanding of the passage.

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (His breath). 51 And, behold, ...

(1) the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and (2) the earth did quake, and
(3) the rocks rent; 52 And
(4) the graves were opened; and
(5) many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE, 53 And
(6) came out of the graves AFTER his resurrection, and
(7) went into the holy city, and
(8) appeared unto many. 

54 Now when the [Roman] centurion, and they that were with him [Roman guards], watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this WAS the Son of God! (Greek: Ἀληθῶς Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος! = 'Truly a-god's son was this!' [like Hercules])

Verse 52 says "πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν" which means "many bodies of-the sleepers holy awoke." This doesn't have anything to do with "the cracks in the ground."

The author (Matthew or Maththios or Matittyeehuw) was using the same terminology as our Master did in Matthew 16:21; 17:9, 23; and 20:19.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθῆναι).

Matthew 17:9, 23 (KJV)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead (ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγερθῇ).
...

 23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθήσεται). And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 (KJV)

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθήσεται).

This is not debatable; it's an objective fact.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Retrobyter
to complete the verse number

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

The belief that Matthew 27:45-54 shows no resurrection is not founded in a correct understanding of the passage.

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (His breath). 51 And, behold, ...

(1) the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and (2) the earth did quake, and
(3) the rocks rent; 52 And
(4) the graves were opened; and
(5) many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE, 53 And
(6) came out of the graves AFTER his resurrection, and
(7) went into the holy city, and
(8) appeared unto many. 

54 Now when the [Roman] centurion, and they that were with him [Roman guards], watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this WAS the Son of God! (Greek: Ἀληθῶς Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος! = 'Truly a-god's son was this!' [like Hercules])

Verse 52 says "πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν" which means "many bodies of-the sleepers holy awoke." This doesn't have anything to do with "the cracks in the ground."

The author (Matthew or Maththios or Matittyeehuw) was using the same terminology as our Master did in Matthew 16:21; 17:9, 23; and 20:19.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθῆναι).

Matthew 17:9, 23 (KJV)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead (ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγερθῇ).
...

 23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθήσεται). And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 (KJV)

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again (καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθήσεται).

This is not debatable; it's an objective fact.

Hi Retro,

I am not debating whether a certain word is used regarding Jesus, I stated as much in my post. It is also used as an ordinary change of someone's physical position. Matt. 8:26- And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, G1453 and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

So,

This happened from the quake AFTER the temple vail incident. There had been a quake that moved the stone. Matt. 28:2- And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

So, you totally ignored the fact that NOBODY resurrected/ came back to life was ever called "bodies" THAT is what you say of a corpse!

Also left out the glaring digression into the future and the basic reading rule afforded for maintaining consistency when parentheses are used. (the manuscripts have NO punctuations, including parentheses, but nevertheless apply here)

Mat 27:51-And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; *

 Mat 27:52-And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

 Mat 27:53-And came out of the graves after his resurrection, * and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

With the bold face roughly depicting parentheses it would connect the splitting rocks with going into the city.

This even happened to Jesus' tomb and I am certain there would have been aftershocks as is virtually routine.

To say this is the FIRST RESURRECTION, for example, means to declare by fiat a misuse of the wording of the bible. It would force a differentiation between the FIRST (choicest) and the rest of the dead after the 1K yrs. One group gets prime membership but those who believed the same Gospel become second class-anathema! Christ died for ALL, there cannot be ANOTHER gospel. Also there is a barrier to this kind of thinking in:

Heb. 11:40- .For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

 

The holy sleepers may indeed still be in their graves when the Messiah returns.

Hi Retro,

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @missmuffet.

There's a much better understanding of where "Paradise" is. Christians know about the three places "paradeisos" is found in the New Testament: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7, but only a handful know where the other three places are in the Old Testament: Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Solomon 4:13. 

Let's put them in order and look at each one:

Nehemiah 2:8 (KJV)

8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Nechemyah 2:8 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

וְאִגֶּ֡רֶת אֶל־אָסָף֩ שֹׁמֵ֨ר הַפַּרְדֵּ֜ס אֲשֶׁ֣ר לַמֶּ֗לֶךְ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־לִ֣י עֵצִ֡ים לְ֠קָרֹות אֶת־שַׁעֲרֵ֨י הַבִּירָ֤ה אֲשֶׁר־לַבַּ֙יִת֙ וּלְחֹומַ֣ת הָעִ֔יר וְלַבַּ֖יִת אֲשֶׁר־אָבֹ֣וא אֵלָ֑יו וַיִּתֶּן־לִ֣י הַמֶּ֔לֶךְ כְּיַד־אֱלֹהַ֖י הַטֹּובָ֥ה עָלָֽי׃

Ecclesiastes 2:5 (KJV)

5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits: 

Qohelech 2:5 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

עָשִׂ֣יתִי לִ֔י גַּנֹּ֖ות וּפַרְדֵּסִ֑ים וְנָטַ֥עְתִּי בָהֶ֖ם עֵ֥ץ כָּל־פֶּֽרִי׃

Song of Songs 4:13 (KJV)

13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

Shiyr haShiyriym 4:13 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

שְׁלָחַ֙יִךְ֙ פַּרְדֵּ֣ס רִמֹּונִ֔ים עִ֖ם פְּרִ֣י מְגָדִ֑ים כְּפָרִ֖ים עִם־נְרָדִֽים׃

Luke 23:43 (KJV) 

43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Kata Loukan 23:43 (UBS Greek New Testament)

43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Pros Korinthious B 12:4 (UBS Greek New Testament)

4 ὅτι ἡρπάγη εἰς τὸν παράδεισον καὶ ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Apokalupsis Iooannou 2:7 (UBS Greek New Testament)

7 Ὁ ἔχων οὖς ἀκουσάτω τί τὸ πνεῦμα λέγει ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις. Τῷ νικῶντι δώσω αὐτῷ φαγεῖν ἐκ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς, ὅ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ τοῦ θεοῦ.

See, the word "pardeec" (פַּרְדֵּ֣ס), pronounced "par-DACE," is the Hebrew word that was transliterated as "paradeisos" (παράδεισος), pronounced "par-AH-die-sos," and it means a "PARK of trees; an ORCHARD." We have a few such orchards here in Florida, mostly that of orange trees (although they are giving way to new subdivisions all the time). Once a year or so, I will go up to North Carolina for a vacation with relatives and see such orchards of pine trees that will be harvested for Christmas trees sold throughout the East Coast. In both cases, the trees are given enough room that each tree has room for both its root-system and unencumbered access to sunlight and fresh air. 

Pay close attention to Revelation 2:7; it has a wonderful piece of information that leads to invaluable truth: "the tree of life, which is in the paradice (park; orchard) of God."

Where else do we find information about the "tree of life?"

Revelation 21:9-27; 22:1-5 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light waslike unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city weregarnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoeverworketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And, there it is. THAT is God's "Park of Trees," His "Paradise!" It exists in the median of the road where the River of the Water of Life flows. Remember: this city is 12,000 furlongs on a side! That's 12,000 x 12,000 square furlongs of area ON THE FIRST FLOOR, GROUND LEVEL! Since we know from Roman mile markers all over Europe that a "furlong" or a Greek "stadios," or "stad" for short, is 607.14222... feet, then 12,000 stadia would be 12,000 stad x (607.142222... ft / stad) x (1 mi / 5280 ft) = 1,379.868686... mi. Thus, the square footage of the first level of the city would be 1,904,037.593 square miles, and EVERYWHERE on that level that the street goes so will the river and the tree of life species. We're talking about MILES AND MILES of city park covering over 1.9 MILLION SQUARE MILES! And, THAT'S JUST THE FIRST LEVEL! The city, being 1,379.868686... miles HIGH, as well, will contain multiple levels! I believe that's what the twelve foundations are for, each foundation for another major level of the city! This "Paradise," this Park, will be THROUGHOUT the city on ALL of its levels! It's not exactly the same as the city, but it IS EVERYWHERE WITHIN the city!

That is what and where "Paradise" is.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That is what and where "Paradise" is.

Amen! Our future home is beyond our comprehension.

So I am wondering how you and others take that statement the thief on the cross. Are people there now in your opinion? I have heard people claim this but I don't quite see it that way.