Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

So do you believe there are two good destinies, the destiny of the saved who get our resurrection bodies. Then the destiny of the millenial righteous who are obedient during the millenium and obviously do not participate in Satan's final attack.

Actually ARGOSY, I believe there are 3 good destinies.

1. The Body of Christ to the third heaven.

2. The OT saints (the just men & women who looked for a city, Heb. 11) who go to the New Jerusalem, in the middle heavens, (Universe).

3. Israel ruling over the nations on the New Earth.

Probably needs a thread of its own - the Eternal Purposes.

Marilyn.

[Follow The Lamb]

On May 13, 2003 at 9:44 AM, George said:

Hello brothers and sisters,

 

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the post-trib rapture theological position.

 

Why do you believe in a post trib rapture?

 

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

 

George

 

I believe in a non pre-trib rapture based on the words of our Lord Jesus as well as other NT verses found in 2 Thessalonians and the book of Revelation.

Just started a new thread sharing early church quotes on the topic here, if anyone is interested...

 

[Riccardo]

If people get a second chance, to be far, that means every one that ever existed since the beginning to time?  The bible doesn't say how many followers of Christ brother Paul Saul killed. That means all must get there chance again to repent, that is if God is to be fair, this includes the Hittler's. 

The bible says there is no excuse Rom 1:20

Why does the bible say Rev22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still;  he who is holy, let him be holy still.    if this is the case then some of these people don't get a chance at salvation this time around. I find that strange, but the whole theology of a second chance is strange & give Satin so many accusations against God, that his laws are not far. 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Riccardo

[Amazing Horse]

How to sum up post tribulation rapture in four verses

Matthew 24:48-51

You want to delay it for 7 year so you can get ready for his comming , let's be real if he come tommorow you would not be prepared

Edited September 3, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Guest]

On 8/14/2017 at 8:13 PM, Riccardo said:

Why does the bible say Rev22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still;  he who is holy, let him be holy still.    if this is the case then some of these people don't get a chance at salvation this time around. I find that strange, but the whole theology is strange & give Satin so many accusations against God, that his laws are not far. 

Hey brother Riccardo,

You raised a good point with that verse.  It has seemed to me, after much consideration as to the meaning of this, that this may not be a statement of judgement.  In other words, I think that instead of this meaning God has made a decision regarding our behavior, perhaps this is a call to each person to make a decision.  If you're going to choose to be righteous, stay righteous.  If you stay unjust, by choice, then you will be considered unjust when our Lord returns.  

I like what Amazing Horse wrote about getting ready for His coming and not being caught unprepared.  That links perfectly in many Scriptures that support the idea of always being ready, always striving to be counted righteous... whether we believe the Lord will return today or even if we believe He won't return in our lifetime.  The decision is ours to always live like He's coming back today, and not to allow our impatience to cause us to slip into a backslidden state... In either case, believers will be with Him... It's said that we would be seen as "naked and ashamed"  if caught unready, unprepared.

Anyway, that's how I reconcile that verse.  It stays true to Scripture and doesn't make it seem like people are unfairly stuck in rebellion to God, and it doesn't cause a believer to think he could lose his salvation if caught in sin.

Hope that helps.  Thanks for allowing me to chime in.

Shalom.

[Amazing Horse]

Can somebody of you explain how

Matthew 24

37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

fist into this

Rev 16

7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

if you assume that post-tribulation rapture is true ?

 

"they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage " seems to contradict with people dying and blasphemy God for hurting them with plagues doesn't it ?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Amazing Horse said:

Can somebody of you explain how

Matthew 24

37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

fist into this

Rev 16

7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

if you assume that post-tribulation rapture is true ?

 

"they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage " seems to contradict with people dying and blasphemy God for hurting them with plagues doesn't it ?

Between the 2nd and 3rd woes (6th and 7th plagues) is the time when people are carrying on as usual.  The two witnesses (plague bringers) have just been killed, the plagues subside, and the false prophet appears victorious.  The world rejoices and give each other gifts in celebration.  Life, they think, has returned to normal.

• And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:13-16

There's a reason that Jesus said what He did as the armies are gathering for Armageddon.  It's not an afterthought or random interjection.

[Amazing Horse]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Between the 2nd and 3rd woes (6th and 7th plagues) is the time when people are carrying on as usual.  The two witnesses (plague bringers) have just been killed, the plagues subside, and the false prophet appears victorious.  The world rejoices and give each other gifts in celebration.  Life, they think, has returned to normal.

• And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:13-16

There's a reason that Jesus said what He did as the armies are gathering for Armageddon.  It's not an afterthought or random interjection.

So how is that they hide from God's face but he comes to them as thief unexpected ?

Rev 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Revelation 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[BlazyJon]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine Debunked

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20:4-6

 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So if the dead in Christ rise FIRST and... "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection", and we who are alive and remain do not precede them.  Then I submit to you that pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is FALSE.

Yes the Lord will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, so consider:

1 Corinthians 15:52

 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many trumpets are there in Revelation?  Seven right?  So I am pretty sure the Church will be present during the first Six.  How do I know the Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet?  I'll show you.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So it is obvious that if they "BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ", then you can tell it is the last trumpet as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52.  And if the LAST trumpet then six need to blow first.  But the day and hour the Lord returns is only known by the Father, so the angel could sound it at any time.  And if he does then we who are alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air AS He is coming to Earth.  And if we simply meet Him in the air as He is coming to Earth, to stand on the Mount of Olives, won't we.............."Always be with the Lord"?--1 Thessalonians 4:17

Consider this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

In 1 Thessalonians it spoke of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In 2 Thessalonians it speaks of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing these letters to the same people.

Consider this:

Luke 17:34-37

 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Left where?  Left with the birds...or...eagles.  And if you check the context of Revelation 19:21 you will see that the Lord fully returned; it is quite obvious.

Romans 8:17

and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

The word suffer is not a typo.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Amazing Horse said:

So how is that they hide from God's face but he comes to them as thief unexpected ?

Rev 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Revelation 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

Timing.  At the 6th seal, when the sky is rolled back and they see He who sits on the throne and the Lamb, they know they've messed up.  Years later,after the 6th plague (2nd woe), they think they've won by defeating the two witnesses.