Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

30 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

This Scripture really defeats your purpose;   All these precious metals and gems and stones were created in the day that Lucifer was created.

Notice that in the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth,  the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.  (notice nothing else has been created , no angels). v. 3 - And God said Let there be light.  Now go to v. 26 - Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.  v. 31 - God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.  And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

God made man to rule over the earth.  Not Satan.  God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.  Nothing bad existed at this point of creation.  So Satan had not yet fallen.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

You haven't shown anything of the sort. Only your own speculation about alternate meanings of scriptures.

Now if you would like to discuss the topic of this thread, I would be glad to engage further. Otherwise I consider this a waste of time and a fool's errand to chatter endlessly on something you cannot prove.

[HAZARD]

18 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

This Scripture really defeats your purpose;   All these precious metals and gems and stones were created in the day that Lucifer was created.

Notice that in the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth,  the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.  (notice nothing else has been created , no angels). v. 3 - And God said Let there be light.  Now go to v. 26 - Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.  v. 31 - God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.  And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

God made man to rule over the earth.  Not Satan.  God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.  Nothing bad existed at this point of creation.  So Satan had not yet fallen.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You wrote,

" (notice nothing else has been created , no angels)."

.

Job 38:4-7,  V. 4, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 

    5, Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 
    6, Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
    7, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

You haven't shown anything of the sort. Only your own speculation about alternate meanings of scriptures.

Now if you would like to discuss the topic of this thread, I would be glad to engage further. Otherwise I consider this a waste of time and a fool's errand to chatter endlessly on something you cannot prove.

I have proved it beyond doubt citing many dozens of scriptures. You just waffle on hanging on to your personal interpretation of the scriptures and just don't believe what you read.

Don't bother responding, your on ignore.

Edited July 22, 2018 by HAZARD

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

You wrote,

.

Job 38:4-7,  V. 4, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 

    5, Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 
    6, Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
    7, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  And what is your point. Lucifier's fall did not happen until after the 6th day of Creation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[HAZARD]

28 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  And what is your point. Lucifier's fall did not happen until after the 6th day of Creation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Got a Scripture showing that?

All the angels, including Lucifer were created before God laid the foundation stone of the earth, for they sang together and shouted for Joy when God did this.

God said in Job,

Job 38:4-7,  V. 4, Where wast thou WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH? declare, if thou hast understanding. 

    5, Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 
    6, Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 

7, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

***************************************************************

Angels are called sons of God in other passages as are men;

Gen. 6: 2, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 

  Gen. 6:4, There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

Job 38: 7, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 1: 6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 

Job 2: 1, Again there was a day when the sons of God when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 

Lucifer was a fallen creature when he entered Adams Eden.

In referencing Satan’s fall from heaven, Jesus most had in mind Isaiah 14:12,  “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!”

The fall of Satan that Jesus saw happened after Lucifer’s sin, before Adam and Eve’s temptation in the Garden of Eden. In his pride, Lucifer had lifted himself up, but God had cast him down out of his original place in heaven (although he retains a limited access to heaven for now, according to Job 1:6. Jesus’ statement in Luke 10:18 speaks of Jesus’ pre-existence and the Lord’s defeat over the power of Satan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Uriah]

Very many presumptions and problematic.

It is only presumed that your interpretation is valid. But there is a body of belief that it is wrong and a misunderstanding at best. Being called son of God is applied from Adam all the way to us. Not only that but Jesus said that one day WE will be like the angels. They do not marry. Hence procreating by angels is impossible without numerous incarnations. This passage is about men becoming corrupted and acquiring many, many wives -the beginning of clan-ism. Something God had not intended.

Sons of God therefore were men as shown in the verse previous to the one you cite. As for other matters, the earth was covered with water when God created it in the beginning. (see Gen. 1)  And when Jesus saw Satan cast out of heaven it was a vision looking into the future, not the past. Just read Revelation.

 

[Mike Mclees]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2003 at 10:05 AM, eric said:

Hi Zeb, I have to agree with your summation of events and that the pre-tribbers are having their ears tickled. This is one of the verses from the word that, to me antway, seems to prove that the saints do in fact go through the period of tribulation.

It is from the 13th chapter of rev. KJV. v.7. and it was given unto him[beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given to him over all kindred, and tongues, and nations.

Okay that one verse, to me, says a lot. e.g. How can the a/c make war against the saints if they have been secretely been raptured beforehand.

Then some of the pre-tribbers say that only the mature saints are raptured first then the rest are taken later, which suggests two second comings, which is totally ubscriptual.

Well that's my viewpoint anyway.

This is also mentioned in Daniel 7:25

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2003 at 10:05 AM, eric said:

Have a great day in the Lord....eriIt is from the 13th chapter of rev. KJV. v.7. and it was given unto him[beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given to him over all kindred, and tongues, and nations.c  is also mentioned 

And he shall speak great word (the antichrist) against the most high and shall wear out the saints of the most high, and think to change times ans laws, and they shall be given into his hand until a times and times and the dividing of times.  3 1/2 yrs     Not seven years. This will occur when the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation as Jesus confirmed Matt 24: 15  

Jesus sai Matt 24:15

When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place (whomsoever readeth let him understand)

in Daniel 9:27 said The antichrist would commit this desolation mid week which is 3 1/2 year after the seven yr peace is made  So the saints are given into His hand after he declares he is God. Then shall there be Great Tribulation such as we have never seen

[OldCoot]

On 7/21/2018 at 8:35 PM, Montana Marv said:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  And what is your point. Lucifier's fall did not happen until after the 6th day of Creation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Possibly, but the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 alludes to something different.  The Hebrew behind "was without form" in Genesis 1:2 is  better translated "became without form".  That suggests that some event happened between V1 and V2.

Now, it is a pagan idea (and modern science) that the earth was chaos and out of it came order.  I suggest that God always creates something fully in order, and that the earth became chaos.   That lends credence to the idea that something happened between V1 and V2.   Now, how long that was, no one will know till they get to ask Yeshua in the future.  And it is during that period between V1 and V2 that the fall of Satan probably happened, and it caused the earth to become without form and void.

But the point from V2 onward, I agree was 6 days of creation or rather recreation.  

Edited September 14, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Montana Marv]

On 9/14/2018 at 7:51 AM, OldCoot said:

Possibly, but the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 alludes to something different.  The Hebrew behind "was without form" in Genesis 1:2 is  better translated "became without form".  That suggests that some event happened between V1 and V2.

Now, it is a pagan idea (and modern science) that the earth was chaos and out of it came order.  I suggest that God always creates something fully in order, and that the earth became chaos.   That lends credence to the idea that something happened between V1 and V2.   Now, how long that was, no one will know till they get to ask Yeshua in the future.  And it is during that period between V1 and V2 that the fall of Satan probably happened, and it caused the earth to become without form and void.

But the point from V2 onward, I agree was 6 days of creation or rather recreation.  

And just to add; Gen 1:31 - God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and morning - the sixth day.

 So no chaos, no sin, no curse.

In Christ

Montana Marv