Jump to content
IGNORED

Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 11/14/2018 at 8:01 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 

Yes, the Spirit of God.  It means the Word. The Word is God. God is the Word.  How the Word moves upon the waters?  By the MOUTH of them, did not you understand this yet?  Ah,  you are confounding waters with waters.  There are waters (H2O) and waters that have MOUTH but do not speak, have ears but do not hear, this explain the why there was darkness was upon the face of the deep, upon the face of the waters.

Shalom, Oseas.

What a horrible hodge-podge! The Spirit means the Word?! The Word is the Father?! The waters have a MOUTH?! This kind of allegorical thinking doesn't know which end is up!

Let's talk: First, technically speaking, the words "the Spirit of God" in Hebrew ("ruwach elohiym") means "a wind of God." I believe that it means that over the surface of this planet of water, God blew a wind to get things started. 

But, even if we escalate this understanding to mean the "Ruwach haQodesh," that is, the "Holy Spirit" of God, we should still be consistent if we say that we believe in the Trinity. The Trinity consists of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. The three are "one" in that they are in agreement and constitute the ONE God, but they are three SEPARATE Persons with individual responsibilities and positions. They are most visible as separate at the Crucifixion. The Father was pouring out His judgment on sin; the Word-who-became-Son had become and represented our sin on the cross and died as our Sacrifice for sin; and the Holy Spirit held the universe together while God judged Sin!

Quote

No, it is not true. "Heaven" is not the"earth's  ATMOSPHERE, absolutely, nor the physical space of Universe - the men call Sky. The Word of God reveals what is heaven, but I see that you do not understand the language of Scriptures given by the Holy Spirit, why do not you believe in the Word of God? Read Ephesians 1:v.3 among many others of similar revelation. And please, do not work with the leter of Scriptures, as did the Old Serpent in the garden of Eden, rather work with the Spirit of the Word.   The leter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Yes, it IS true! I believe in the Word of God just fine! I just do NOT believe in YOUR interpretation of God's Word!

The STRANGEST flaw in the allegorical method of interpretation is that NONE of the Scriptures are supposed to be taken at face value! Why would God have something said if it was never meant to be understood that way? That's the mark of an INEFFICIENT GOD! God is most assuredly NOT an inefficient God!

2 Corinthians 3:6 is also frequently misread and not read within its context:

2 Corinthians 3:1-18 (KJV)

1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as (do) some others, epistles (letters) of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle (letter) written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ (the letter of the Messiah) ministered (delivered by a servant) by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not (engraved) in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart (Greek: kardia = Latin: cor = "core" of one's mind).

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass (a mirror) the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Exodus 34:29-35 (KJV)

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. 30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. 31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. 32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai. 33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. 34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. 35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Proverbs 25:1-7 (KJV)

1 These are also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out.

2 It is the glory (Hebrew: kvod = weight; brightness) of God to conceal a thing: but the honour (glory) of kings is to search out a matter.

3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer. 5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.

6 Put not forth thyself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great men: 7 For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen.

It's important that we understand our "Jewish roots"; that is, the Hebrew origin of the Bible and Christianity! Paul's not saying that we should avoid a literal interpretation of Scripture for a "spiritual" (allegorical) interpretation! He's saying that the original covenant or agreement between the children of Israel and God was for death to those who disobeyed and broke that covenant! It was the written agreement (the letter) of the Law that kills!

The glory (kvod) of the LORD (YHWHLITERALLY caused Moses' face to shine! So bright (and weird) did his face shine, that the children of Israel were FREAKED OUT by it!

The Hebrew and Greek words that were translated as "glory" are...

3519 kaaVowd (kaw-vode'). Rarely kaaVod {kaw-vode'}; from kaaVad; properly, weight, but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness -- glorious(-ly), glory, honour(-able).

1391 doxa (dox'-ah). From the base of dokeoo; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective) -- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

We have several other passages that suggest that "glory" is LITERALLY a "brightness":

1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Revelation 1:10-16 (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (not "Sunday" but the day when the Lord Yeshua` returns), and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

During His first advent, Yeshua` Himself was so "transfigured" in a vision:

Matthew 16:24-28; 17:1-9 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  25
  • Topic Count:  275
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  5,208
  • Content Per Day:  1.00
  • Reputation:   1,893
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/02/2010
  • Status:  Offline

6 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

If you did know the Holy Scriptures, you would never do this question. What does the Word say on?

Oh only who has the Spirit of the Most High God and Almighty,the God Father, is able to understand what I have written by His Word.

No, "the Spirit of God" does not mean "a wind of God" absolutely. If you did know God you would never say thing like that about Him, I see that you only have heard to speak about Him, but know not Him, neither His Word evidently. Wind is an angel or a messenger of the Lord God. Wind is a person created by the Most High God and Almighty, wind is not the Creator as you imagine and say on. His Word says clearly: Hebrews 1:v.7CJB - Complete Jewish Bible : "Indeed, when speaking of angels, He says, "who makes His angels winds and His servants fiery flames”

I understand. You believe in fantasies and like to write weird fables. What I must say is that The winds are sent here by God not through a blew of Him ahahaha, but under a command of Him, furthermore God sends them here for a kind of work and to give messages here on earth.   

 

Do not you know that the waters have mouth? Yes, the waters have mouth of course. If you did know the Word of God you would not do this kind of question. The problem is that you try to interpret Scriptures without knowledge of them. What I see is that you were swallowed by the Beast that did rise up out of the waters (Rev.13:v.1)

That is not the case. The case is that you know not God.  By the way, God is a title, a title of Him who is a Spirit, he has not flesh and bones like you that was made of the dust of the earth, understand? The Word is God, God is Spirit. It is impossible to you understand this, because no man knows the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. It is impossible to know God without He be revealed to the man by the Lord JESUS. It is impossible to any know God if he has not the Spirit of God. 

Jewish roots? Read  and meditate deeply what JESUS said about the Jewish roots. John 8:31-47

Removed from thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

Shalom, Uriah.

On 10/26/2018 at 10:32 PM, Uriah said:

Wow Oseas, I can hardly keep up with that. You cover a lot of stuff all at once...pretty advanced. I'll be watching out for that bro. 

For now I'll stick with the thread topic of post trib.

Yes, I was in the process of answering that last post of Oseas, but then decided that it would not matter to him. We were going around and around in circles and getting away from the topic.

I do believe in a post-tribulation rapture view; however, I also believe that the tribulation is a lot longer than a mere 7 years or 3.5 years as most believe. I believe that what most people call the "church age" is really the tribulation period which started in the First Century A.D. and will continue to the Second Coming of the Lord Yeshua`.

See, I believe in a THREE-dimensional "rapture" that occurs OVER TIME around the earth. While it happens quickly, it is NOT instantaneous. Yeshua` the Messiah returns FROM "Heaven," that is, FROM the New Jerusalem, His Father's House, His Father's Bedouin Tent.

ANNOUNCEMENT: We do NOT go back to "Heaven" or the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is on its way to US!

Instead, we shall go with Yeshua` to ISRAEL! It's a "mass transit system" to get all of the children of the Kingdom to the Land of Israel quickly! Why is there urgency in the need for travel? Yeshua` shall be ON FIRE to get there quickly! He shall be ZEALOUS for His people and His Land!

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness (justice), mighty to save (rescue; deliver).

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue; deliverance) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Zechariah 12:2-9 (KJV)

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall be herniated), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 35:1-15 (KJV)

1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 

2 Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it, 3 And say unto it,

Thus saith the Lord GOD;

Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate. 4 I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD. 5 Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end: 6 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee. 7 Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth. 8 And I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword. 9 I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

10 Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries (Judah and Israel) shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the LORD was there: 11 Therefore, as I live,

saith the Lord GOD,

I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee. 12 And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume. 13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them. 

14 Thus saith the Lord GOD;

When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate. 15 As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

And, that's just a little of the wrath and ire that God shows in prophecies about the future! God the Father and His Messiah, Yeshua`, are going to be on a MISSION! They are going to rescue the children of Israel and do so with a clear message to the world.  "Don't mess with my people!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  10
  • Topic Count:  97
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  5,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.47
  • Reputation:   2,541
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  11/06/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/01/1950

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ANNOUNCEMENT: We do NOT go back to "Heaven" or the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is on its way to US!

Scripture says differently:

Heb. 12:22 But you come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Retro,

I think I understand what you mean by some of what you say. ("in this world you shall have tribulation"...) I don't understand  your saying a rapture over time. When did it start? (the rapture)

Edited by Uriah
sp
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Scripture says differently:

Heb. 12:22 But you come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Shalom, WilliamL.

I think you've missed the author's-of-Hebrews point: The tense is that it's already a "DONE DEAL!" He's not saying that we've truly already arrived! Have YOU already come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the Jerusalem above the sky? I don't think so. This is that to which we LOOK FORWARD! This is what we ANTICIPATE! It's a citizenship to which we belong, but we're NOT LITERALLY THERE, YET!

Have you ever been put in a position where the unbeliever to whom you're talking says, "I believe that a person just dies and that's the end of it"? What do you tell him? (or her?) Do you tell him that the body goes in the ground and the soul goes to heaven? That's NOT what the Scriptures say!

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV)

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

He's NOT WRONG!

And, as I've said in other topics, our living bodies ARE our souls! As long as we have the "breath of life," we ARE "souls," "air-breathing creations!"

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing creature").

But, let's also "drop the other shoe":

We ANTICIPATE a RESURRECTION after our deaths!

Look at the conversation between Yeshua` and Marta ("Martha"):

John 11:21-27 (KJV, quotation marks added)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die (i.e., from that moment onward). Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him, "Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

It's not just some "pie in the sky by and by!" When our Lord Yeshua`, who is God's Messiah, God's Anointed One, God's Selected One to be the King of Israel and King of Kings or Emperor of the World because He is the Son of David and also the Son of God as fortold to David, RETURNS He shall RESURRECT all those who belong to Him, both "Jew and Gentile" or "Israeli and non-Israeli!"

THAT'S our "blessed hope!" THAT'S our "happy, confident assurance!" THAT'S our promise!

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 11/19/2018 at 8:43 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Retro,

I think I understand what you mean by some of what you say. ("in this world you shall have tribulation"...) I don't understand  your saying a rapture over time. When did it start? (the rapture)

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry. I guess I wasn't clear on that point. I don't believe that the rapture has already started.

I believe that WHEN it starts, it's not an instantaneous thing. It's an event that will take time to perform. He shall send out His messengers into all parts of the earth to gather His elect "from the four compass directions of the earth" and bring them to Him. Since He shall start without us cleansing His Land, we'll need to be brought to Him in the Middle East. We'll also need to be brought up to speed with what we need to be doing to help Him in the task.

Even as new, superhuman, glowing bodies, having been newly resurrected, we won't "know everything" nor will we be able to do everything! We will still have to LEARN (if we haven't already) what to do and how to do it, and we'll still be given tasks to perform. After all, we ARE His servants - His slaves!

Just a post script to explain the point: How many people know how to ride a horse? If we're not promised "instant knowledge" (and we're not), then many of us are going to require learning about riding horses, especially at a gallop!

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky") followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yeshua`, at this point in time, shall have already started without us, "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood." This goes back to the prophecy:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

(Sorry. No access to color changes in "edit mode.")

Edited by Retrobyter
to give detail
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

On 11/20/2018 at 6:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry. I guess I wasn't clear on that point. I don't believe that the rapture has already started.

I believe that WHEN it starts, it's not an instantaneous thing. It's an event that will take time to perform. He shall send out His messengers into all parts of the earth to gather His elect "from the four compass directions of the earth" and bring them to Him. Since He shall start without us cleansing His Land, we'll need to be brought to Him in the Middle East. We'll also need to be brought up to speed with what we need to be doing to help Him in the task.

Even as new, superhuman, glowing bodies, having been newly resurrected, we won't "know everything" nor will we be able to do everything! We will still have to LEARN (if we haven't already) what to do and how to do it, and we'll still be given tasks to perform. After all, we ARE His servants - His slaves!

Just a post script to explain the point: How many people know how to ride a horse? If we're not promised "instant knowledge" (and we're not), then many of us are going to require learning about riding horses, especially at a gallop!

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky") followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yeshua`, at this point in time, shall have already started without us, "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood." This goes back to the prophecy:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

(Sorry. No access to color changes in "edit mode.")

Retro,

Can you explain about the reference to learning to ride horses? You see, it is "the armies of heaven" that are shown to be on horses with Jesus. The armies of heaven is a reference to angels. Also could you show the verse(s) about the rapture taking us to the middle east, please?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Retro,

Can you explain about the reference to learning to ride horses? You see, it is "the armies of heaven" that are shown to be on horses with Jesus. The armies of heaven is a reference to angels. Also could you show the verse(s) about the rapture taking us to the middle east, please?

Well, first of all, we need to check the Greek of this passage:

Revelation 19:14 (KJV)

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Apokalupsis Iooannou 19:14 (The Greek New Testament)

14 Kai ta strateumata ta en too ouranoo eekolouthei autoo ef' hippois leukois, endedumenoi bussinon, leukon, katharon.

14 Kai = 14 And
ta = the
strateumata = armies
ta = the-ones
en = in
too = the
ouranoo = sky
eekolouthei = were-following
autoo = Him
ef' (epi contracted) = upon; over; above
hippois = horses
leukois, = white,
endedumenoi = having-been-clothed-in
bussinon, = fine-linen,
leukon, = white,
katharon. = clean; pure.

These aren't the "angels"; they are the ones who were retrieved by the "angels" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(Sorry, pretribbers, but this passage does NOT say that we "go to heaven" after this. We meet the Master in the air, in the atmosphere, and we remain with the Master at all times after this, going wherever He goes, but He's JUST GOT BACK to earth! He's not going to bounce!)

Now, one needs to review just what "angel" MEANS, for the word "angel" is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "aggelos," where the alpha was changed to an "a," the gamma-gamma consonant-blend making the "ng" sound was changed to "ng," the epsilon was changed to an "e," and the lambda was changed to an "l." (The masculine ending of omicron-sigma, not needed in English, was dropped.) The Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance gives us...

32 aggelos (ang'-el-os). From aggelloo (probably derived from agoo; compare agelee) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor -- angel, messenger.

71 agoo (ag'-o). A primary verb; properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce -- be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

34 agelee (ag-el'-ay). From agoo (compare aggelos); a drove -- herd.

So, an "aggelos" is "one who brings messages" or a "messenger." While it CAN mean "a supernatural being who brings messages from God," many times it's talking about "a HUMAN BEING who brings messages," a "HUMAN messenger," whether the message comes from God or someone else. When it's a human messenger who delivers a message from God, we call that person a "pastor."

Case in point,

Mark 1:1-8 (KJV)

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (Malachi 3:1)

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Isaiah 40:2)

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

So, in this particular case, the "aggelos" was John the Baptist! (This also gives us the information that "aggelos" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word (4397) "mal'akh," which is used in Malachi 3:1, which also means "a messenger.")

The "angels" of the seven churches in the first three chapters of Revelation are also probably the pastors of those seven churches to whom Yeshua` was dictating to John to write.

So, here's something to think about: Maybe WE are the "angels!" Consider how people are won to the Lord: Don't we tell others ("witness to others") about how a person can be "saved" and "lead them to the Lord?" So, throughout history, there has been a grand chain of witnessing that connects us all together from the very first apostles ("sent ones") and the first disciples ("students") of the Lord! PERHAPS (and this is just a theory), we get each other as we are resurrected! The Lord Yeshua` the Messiah (the Lord Jesus the Christ) raises His disciples who in turn raise their disciples who raise their disciples who raise their disciples and so on and so forth until ALL are raised back to life, then Yeshua` "reels" us all back in to Himself!

In I Corinthians 15, Paul tells us...

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul"; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit (blaster of wind)

(46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. )

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, my point is this: Perhaps, we, bearing the image of the heavenly, that is, the Lord from heaven, who was made a "life-giving blaster of wind," shall also become "life-giving blasters of wind!"

Didn't Yeshua` say the following?

John 14:12-14 (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Didn't Yeshua` raise people back to life? Didn't HIS DISCIPLES RAISE PEOPLE BACK TO LIFE?

Acts 9:36-42 (KJV)

36 Now there was at Joppa (today called "Yaffo, Israel") a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. 37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. 38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. 39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. 41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. 42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

So, maybe it's not so far-fetched an idea after all!

So, when we read that Yeshua` came with His armies on horseback, we are probably among those armies.

As to "taking us to the Middle East," we read:

Ezekiel 34:11-31 (KJV)

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

This is compared to Yeshua`s dividing the sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:31-40 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

This includes us. And, just where do you think His "throne of his glory" is going to be? I would say that it will likely be in Jerusalem, Israel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  11
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,364
  • Content Per Day:  0.59
  • Reputation:   277
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, here's something to think about: Maybe WE are the "angels!"

I think it is pretty clear that the armies of heaven are angels. All through the O.T. we read of the "Lord of hosts" these hosts are the angelic armies as seen when Elijah asked for his servant's eyes to be opened to see them. Or the ones in the legions Jesus referred to before He was crucified.

Angels are seen in scripture wearing , white, fine linen etc.

We are His bride, not His army. What husband has his wife go out and fight his enemies? Also the scripture makes a distinction between His angels and His elect.

It seems to me the that bride is rescued by Jesus and His army on the last Day when He shows up on His white horse. The bride is seen having been raised into the air at that point ....THAT is where is says she is given her new attire....not before. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...