Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I said -I believe God`s word tells us that the glorified Son of God will have His throne, His seat of authority and power in the highest realm, over all, (yet under the Father).  

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me ON MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

`...seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE  ALL principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME, and put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET...` (Eph. 1: 20 -22)

`Then when all things as made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 28)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

And, I hope you will forgive me. I know this is unsolicited "correction" (and probably "unwanted" as well); however, I care about you and others who may be reading along. So, I shall forge ahead, anyway.

Let's look at Ephesians 1:20-22 now (which I feel may be at the heart of the matter):

Again, we need to look at these verses in context and in the right understanding of definitions, involving the Greek as needed.

2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os). From epi and ouranos; above the sky
-- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

1909 epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.
-- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

1391 doxa (dox'-ah). From the base of dokeoo; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective)
-- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

And, "glory" should be pronounced "glow-ry." Like bright stars against a black sky, it's the shine of the star! It can also mean the "glow" of a human being in his opulence and luxury!

Ephesians 1:1-23; 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ (one sent by Yeshua` the Messiah) by the will of God, to the saints (holy ones) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus (to the loyal in the Messiah Yeshua`): 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ (from the Master Yeshua` the Messiah).

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings (Greek: ho eulogeesas heemas en pasee eulogia pneumatikee = "has spoken well of us in all the breathed well-spoken/praise")  in heavenly places (Greek: en tois epouraniois = "in the above-the-skies") in Christ [the Messiah]: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ [the Messiah], both which are in heaven (Greek: epi tois ouranois = "above the skies"), and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation [the good news about your rescue]: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory [the Father of light/brightness], may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ [in the Messiah], when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Please note here that it does NOT say that He is reigning with God the Father! God has just placed Him "at His own right hand within the (places) above-the-sky, which are LITERALLY "far above all principality, power, might, and dominion, and every name (authority) that is named, not only in this civilization but also in any one of those to come!"

1 And you (readers) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised usup together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in hiskindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Here, note that there are only TWO groups of whom Paul is speaking, not three, the "Circumcision" (the children of Israel) and the "Uncircumcision" (the Gentile believers to whom he is addressing this passage). He speaks of making the two into ONE new man!

[Retrobyter]

On 12/15/2018 at 4:00 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I said -I believe God`s word tells us that the glorified Son of God will have His throne, His seat of authority and power in the highest realm, over all, (yet under the Father).  

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me ON MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

`...seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE  ALL principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME, and put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET...` (Eph. 1: 20 -22)

`Then when all things as made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 28)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Last verse: 1 Corinthians 15:28. First, remember that this is from the "Resurrection Chapter." Therefore, Paul's take on these verses is centered around the resurrections, and he is focusing on the future in the sense of the resurrections. Paul speaks of THREE Resurrections: That of the Messiah Himself, that of those who belong to the Messiah, and that of all others. Yeshua` the Messiah is the Source of ALL resurrections, positive or negative!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0.) Christ (The Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1.) afterward they that are Christ's (the Messiah's) at his coming. 
(2.) 24 Then cometh the end, when he (the Messiah) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the Messiah) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage makes the best sense in light of John 5:

John 5:16-29 (KJV)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (1.); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (2.)"

So, the point is this: Yeshua` shall reign ON THIS EARTH, at the end of this age, for a THOUSAND YEARS (as John tells us in Revelation 20:4-6): At the beginning of His reign, the FIRST (1.) general resurrection shall occur ("those who are His," "the resurrection of life") but at the end of the first 1,000 years of His reign (the end of the Millennium), the SECOND (2.) general resurrection shall occur ("the resurrection of damnation [condemnation]").

Now, if we expand upon that "Millennium," we see that this is the time when Yeshua` shall "put all enemies under his feet."

His reign has been and shall be resisted.

I'm not saying that He is currently reigning, but the Jews in particular have been resisting Yeshua` becoming their King, God's Messiah, since His First Advent! "We will not have this man to reign over us!" (Luke 19:14.) Thus, His reign HAS been resisted!

Nevertheless, when Yeshua` returns, He SHALL be their King! (Luke 19:15; Matthew 25:31.)

Luke 19:15 (KJV)

15 And it came to pass, that WHEN he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)

31 WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory (in His brightness), and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (the throne of His brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Furthermore, in the parable of Luke 19, Yeshua` predicted that He shall be saying, 

Luke 19:27 (KJV)

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!

When do you ever hear THAT preached? Most Jews only believe what their Rabbis tell them to believe, but Yeshua` is saying that these instigators shall NOT survive! Many Jews either believe that "Jesus Christ" is not to be trusted, since they were persecuted, tortured, and killed in His name down through the centuries, or they have given up on God and religion entirely because they don't see the God of the Bible in today's world. Yeshua`s Second Coming will change ALL of their minds.

We also read that His reign shall be resisted:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (Hebrew: `al YHWH = "against YHWH"), and against his anointed (Hebrew: v`al mshiychow = "and-against His-Messiah"), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens (Hebrew: bashaamaayim = "in the skies") shall laugh: the Lord (Hebrew: adonaay = "Lord," or "sir") shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

As I've said before, I believe this Messianic psalm is a prophecy about a U.N. meeting (or whatever it shall be called when it occurs). It's interrupted by God's laughter and His mockery, and then He lays into them with the decree He gave to His Son. I believe this won't occur fully until He is reigning upon the earth from the current Jerusalem. It also won't happen until His Kingdom has become an Empire over these kings who have so assembled. (And, Yeshua` shall grow His kingdom during the Millennium like a mustard seed that becomes a tree.)

(The beginnings of its fulfillment were seen IN PART in Acts 4:25, but not the fulfillment of the entire psalm.)

Again, I hope this helps.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/15/2018 at 12:10 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

`Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

`...the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.`  (Rev. 21: 2)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but the English is insufficient. One must look at the original languages. Also, be sure you quote the WHOLE verse and its context, when possible. What did God mean in Isaiah 66:1?

Isaiah 66:1-2 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Yesha`yahuw 66:1-2 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

1 Koh aamar YHWH, "Hashaamayim kis'iy vhaa'aarets hadom raglaay; eey zeh bayit asher tivnuw liy, v'eey zeh maaqowm mnuwchaatiy? v'et kaal...
2 Eeleh yaadiy aasaataah vayihyuw kaal eeleh"; n'um YHWH, "V'el zeh abiyT et `aaniy uwnkheeh ruwach vchaareed `al dVaariy."

1 Koh = 1 Thus
aamar = says
YHWH, = YHWH,
"Hashaamayim = "The-skies [are]
kis'iy = my-throne
vhaa'aarets = and-the-earth [is]
hadom = a-stool
raglaay; = of-my-feet;
eey = where's
zeh = this
bayit = house
asher = that
tivnuw = you-would-build
liy, = for-me,
v'eey = and-where's
zeh = this
maaqowm = place
mnuwchaatiy? = of-my-rest?
v'et = and-for
kaal... = all...
2 Eeleh = 2 these-(things)
yaadiy = my-hand
aasaataah = has-made
vayihyuw = and-exist
kaal = all
eeleh"; = these things";
n'um = declares
YHWH, = YHWH,
"V'el = "And-to
zeh = this-(one)
abiyT = I-will-look
el = to
`aaniy = poor
uwnkheeh = and-stricken/smitten/contrite
ruwach = of-wind/breath/spirit
vchaareed = and-trembles
`al = against/upon/over
dVaariy." = my-word."

This is reminscient of Shlomoh's (Solomon's) words:

2 Chronicles 6:12-21 (KJV)

12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven, 14 And said,

"O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 17 Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: shaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim = "skies and-[the]-skies of-the-skies") cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven (Hebrew: tishma` mimqowm siVtekhaa min hashaamayim = "hear from-dwelling your-seat from the-skies"); and when thou hearest, forgive."

Now, for Revelation 21:2:

Again, in context, we read...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (Greek: kai eidon ouranon kainon kai geen kaineen = "and I-saw a-sky new and a-ground new"): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (Greek: ho gar prootos ouranos kai hee protee gee apeelthan = "the for first sky and the first ground had-gone-away"); and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: teen polin teen hagian Ieerousaleem kaineen eidon katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou = "the city the holy/clean Yerushalayim new I-saw descending out of-the sky away-from the God"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: foonees megalees ek tou thronou = "a-voice loud out of-the throne") saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If something "descends out of the sky," where does it go? Young children draw pictures with green grass under a person's feet and blue sky above the person's head with plenty of white space between the two. But in reality, the sky - the atmosphere - TOUCHES the ground. That's why, when we look in the distance, we see a horizon where the sky meets the ground. So, if the city "descends out of the sky," it LANDS! One doesn't need to make it complicated.

[Jostler]

What if all of the most popular "rapture" theories have significant flaws?  Let me throw this in the mix

 

Quote

Jhn 6:39

“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

The "last day".

And just in case we missed it, He reiterates it just two  verses later:

Quote

 

Jhn 6:40

“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

And, just in case we missed that too, He says it again four verses later:

Quote

Jhn 6:44

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

It is incredibly rare for Jesus to hammer a point home with a triple tap, do you  think  maybe He wants us to "get" this?    Three times in the same conversation, bam, bam, bam.

But wait!  There's more!    If you can take time to read the  whole context out of which I excerpted the above verses, you'll find Jesus  in a synagogue, speaking publicly and He seals up the public portion of the passage with  a FOURTH iteration:

Quote

Jhn 6:54

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Shortly after He said this, the  text switches  to recording a more  private conversation between Jesus and His  disciples.  This was the sermon that cost Jesus a lot of followers and caused even the disciples no small amount  of confusion.

But, if we can figure out when the "last day" is, we got this resurrection  thingy  NAILED....IN Jesus' own words.  Don't we?

When is  the last day?  I assure you the  Bible is very clear on that, and if you use that as your beginning, all these controversial scriptures with so many interpretations just fall into a coherent whole with  no  effort.

  love  you guys

[o0lBobl0o]

" and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

What day is that?

 

[HAZARD]

15 hours ago, Jostler said:

What if all of the most popular "rapture" theories have significant flaws?  Let me throw this in the mix

 

The "last day".

And just in case we missed it, He reiterates it just two  verses later:

 

And, just in case we missed that too, He says it again four verses later:

 

It is incredibly rare for Jesus to hammer a point home with a triple tap, do you  think  maybe He wants us to "get" this?    Three times in the same conversation, bam, bam, bam.

But wait!  There's more!    If you can take time to read the  whole context out of which I excerpted the above verses, you'll find Jesus  in a synagogue, speaking publicly and He seals up the public portion of the passage with  a FOURTH iteration:

 

Shortly after He said this, the  text switches  to recording a more  private conversation between Jesus and His  disciples.  This was the sermon that cost Jesus a lot of followers and caused even the disciples no small amount  of confusion.

But, if we can figure out when the "last day" is, we got this resurrection  thingy  NAILED....IN Jesus' own words.  Don't we?

When is  the last day?  I assure you the  Bible is very clear on that, and if you use that as your beginning, all these controversial scriptures with so many interpretations just fall into a coherent whole with  no  effort.

  love  you guys

 

Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen.

It seems that many refuse their calling and thereby refuse to accept Jesus as their saviour.   

Edited January 20, 2019 by HAZARD

[Jostler]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen.

It seems that many refuse their calling and thereby refuse to accept Jesus as their saviour.   

I have to agree, but I am missing how this relates to what I posted?

[Jostler]

13 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Incorporate all the scriptures, instead of pick-n-choosing, and then we can talk. You're using four verses and applying them to all future multiple events into one. There's several raptures, a first resurrection, a first death, and a second death. Think of it this way: Jesus had one birth, but before He came, they argued He'd come from Bethlehem, Egypt, and Nazareth - all scriptural. Any theory must include all scriptures to sort it out. Look at Jesus' birth events and apply that same issue of His origins to the end-time events. You cannot focus on one part of the puzzle and expect it to apply to everything. If one scripture mentions something, you must incorporate it into your study, otherwise you just have another theory piled onto all the other man-made ones.

I asked a (rhetorical) question of a single verse as part of establishing a foundation.

Quote

But, if we can figure out when the "last day" is, we got this resurrection  thingy  NAILED....IN Jesus' own words.  Don't we?

This is not difficult friend,  either the obvious answer to the rhetorical question asked of this ONE verse is accurate, or it's flawed.  If it's flawed then please expound on the flaw.  You may rest assured I am aware of the necessity of integrating the  'whole counsel' of  the Word when working with anything of any spiritual significance and God  willing I  will bring in  all those other applicable verses, line  upon  line and precept upon precept.

 

[Last Daze]

On 1/20/2019 at 2:00 AM, Jostler said:

The "last day".

And just in case we missed it, He reiterates it just two  verses later:

And, just in case we missed that too, He says it again four verses later:

It is incredibly rare for Jesus to hammer a point home with a triple tap, do you  think  maybe He wants us to "get" this?    Three times in the same conversation, bam, bam, bam.

But wait!  There's more!    If you can take time to read the  whole context out of which I excerpted the above verses, you'll find Jesus  in a synagogue, speaking publicly and He seals up the public portion of the passage with  a FOURTH iteration:

Not much wiggle room there.  Believers are raised up on the last day.  The only other passage that indicates timing is the one that states that the dead are raised immortal at the last trumpet.  So, we have the rapture taking place at the last trumpet on the last day.

The use of the term "the last day" indicates that something ends, it has reached its last day.  The question is "what ends when Jesus returns?"  The answer is: Satan's dominion over the affairs of men.  The return of Jesus will be the most glorious regime change in the history of mankind.  Spiritual Babylon will be cast down and the kingdom of God will fill the earth.

The very first prophecy in Genesis 3:15 addresses this time of restoration and the prophets spoke about it as well.  It's a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, the day of the Lord when the wicked are destroyed.  Then the meek will inherit the earth.  The day of the Lord brings about the last day of spiritual Babylon when the spiritual forces of wickedness are cast out and the glorious reign of Christ begins.  That also happens to be when the last trumpet of God sounds.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

[Jostler]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Not much wiggle room there.  Believers are raised up on the last day.  The only other passage that indicates timing is the one that states that the dead are raised immortal at the last trumpet.  So, we have the rapture taking place at the last trumpet on the last day.

  The answer is: Satan's dominion over the affairs of men.  The return of Jesus will be the most glorious regime change in the history of mankind.  Spiritual Babylon will be cast down and the kingdom of God will fill the earth.

The very first prophecy in Genesis 3:15 addresses this time of restoration and the prophets spoke about it as well.  It's a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, the day of the Lord when the wicked are destroyed.  Then the meek will inherit the earth.  The day of the Lord brings about the last day of spiritual Babylon when the spiritual forces of wickedness are cast out and the glorious reign of Christ begins.  That also happens to be when the last trumpet of God sounds.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

I hope you'll stick with me as long as this will take   I suspect your post is a good example of something that dawned on me (revelation?  I personally believe it was.)  One problem I think we have in general with modern eschatology is that almost every modern scholar of it has fallen into two traps.  One is to very innocently forget that the Book of Revelation  is a revelation of JESUS CHRIST, not a Revelation of the  beast or the tribulation...etc.  

The result has been generation  of fear of the beast and the tribulation...etc.  He did not give us a spirit of fear.  The second subtle perspective error has been to analyze events pretty much right up to the end  of Chapter 19, where Jesus comes riding down the sky, the beast and the false prophet are captured, thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and satan is bound....and then stop.  Completely overlooking the Millennial Reign, and the events immediately following the Millennium.  Just about every eschatology  teacher I've ever listened  to has done both of those  things.

Lets test a couple things:

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The use of the term "the last day" indicates that something ends, it has reached its last day.  The question is "what ends when Jesus returns?"

Lets consider the possibility Jesus was being VERY literal.  Are Jesus' return and the "last day" really synonymous?  What if Jesus literally meant a day in which  the sun rises, but does not go back down, or goes down and does not rise again?  What if THAT is the "day" He is speaking of?  Does the Bible indicate when such a day  will occur?  It does.  And it was even alluded to as a very long term promise all the way  back in Genesis:

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Gen 8:22

“While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

  I would encourage you to take a look at the context.  In short, this is God's response to the "pleasing  aroma" of Noah's first sacrifice after the Ark had landed and the animals were released to repopulate the earth.  So the context is the first destruction of the earth by water.   We know there will be one more utter destruction of the earth and that one will be by fire.  Now by implication, God appears to be promising  that natural processes will continue, seasonally, "while the earth remains".  By implication and by  further revelation as the Bible was completed down through the ages, we know there is a "day" when the earth  will  no longer remain, and this promise will have run its course.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I assumed when you referred to Jesus' return, you were referring  to that event I mentioned before.  Where in Chapter 19, just after the Tribulation, Jesus  comes riding  down with the armies of heaven  and decimates the armies of the Anti-Christ.

Is this event truly the end of satan's influence over mankind?

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The answer is: Satan's dominion over the affairs of men.  The return of Jesus will be the most glorious regime change in the history of mankind.  Spiritual Babylon will be cast down and the kingdom of God will fill the earth.

Here is where overlooking the details of the Millennium has left us with less than a whole picture.  ie:

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Rev 20:1

¶

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Rev 20:3

and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Again, I beg your patience with  me   This is laying a foundation and I promise when we begin to draw the  pieces together they really DO form a coherent whole with no  effort on our part, but we gotta introduce the pieces  

The context of  the above passage is a time cue.  We can rest assured the capturing  of satan and chaining him in the  abyss is an event that occurs very near, but just after Jesus  returns bodily to the earth and sets up His eternal Kingdom.  I fully agree with  the second half of the last sentence I quoted of yours.  That seems clear  to me to be the final  "coming" of the KINGDOM, and it will never be overthrown  or defeated from that  day.  He will reign FOREVER from that day.

BUT, and its a big but, the EARTH is not so  durable.  This earth in which He initially  sets up His final reign  WILL be destroyed....and remade.  And, as we shall see, His reign may not endd, BUT IT WILL BE CONTESTED....one final time.

This is what we overlook (one of the  things) when we fail to take into account the details of the Millennium and incorporate them into  the larger picture:

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Rev 20:7

¶

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:8

and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Rev 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[fn] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

How many have heard this final rebellion expounded upon?  And yet its there.  It simply gobsmacks me to think that after 1000 years  of completely righteous rule, with  NO corruption in government and  no  war, living  in what  is likely to be a tamed, Eden like earth.....there WILL be a rebellion against His  rule?   And by MANY!  Not just a few.  Blows my mind, but whoop!  There  it is in black and white.

With all this in view, can we really still say that Jesus' return in Chapter 19 is the "last day"?

I'm going to stop here and see if you have any questions or if I misunderstood your meaning to this point.  There are many more data points we need to still draw in, for a picture of the whole, but can you  consider the *possibility* that the "last day" truly is a day in which the  sun ceases to  run its  course?  If you  can simply consider the possibility, we can  go on  to the  further  Scriptures we need  to look at for confirmation or refutation.

Something else that we need to address is the  nature of the population during  the Millennium.  Failure to  take  that and analyze it  in detail has also  resulted in many false assumptions that evaporate when we do.  On that topic, please note that  the population is capable of rebelling against the King of all Creation.  That logically demands that they  are "Sons of Adam" in the sense that they are still in possession of  a fallen flesh nature, which  demands the understanding that they do not have resurrection  bodies which  are incapable of sin.  That also  demands that we understand  they are STILL subject to death because  it is appointed unto  man "once to die" and then comes judgement.

I alluded to a lot there, but we can dig up the actual verses if necessary.  Once again, I beg your patience.  There are quite  a few moving  parts we have to draw in here, but we're making progress