What do you think of all the super-rich pastors around the world and their lifestyles??

[Sower]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Break it down. 

What are you views pertaining to a person being prosperous?
What are you views pertaining to a pastor being prosperous?
If prosperity is permitted then are the limits to how much a pastor should prosper? 
Is the means of any pastor's prosperity relevant or important? 
Is how the prosperity is managed or spent relevant or important? 
What are the alternatives (once the prosperity has been attained)? 
How might that which is be changed?

Once you've got some semblance of the above self-articulated then ask how much of that set of beliefs are rooted in clear and whole scripture.

Normally...... I'd start with scripture but I suspect the reverse will serve you best on this occasion. 

When I've read your answers to these question I'll offer some of my own and the scriptural basis thereof, if you're still interested because your answers to those few questions might solve the op for you and others' views won't be needed. 

 

 

I will say this: God's jurisprudence (justice) is built on the premise of property and true ownership quite substantively. Grace? Not so much. Properly understood, the two cannot be separated.

 

I know the above wasn't directed to me, but I'm asserting as was told once:)

"What are you views pertaining to a person being prosperous?"

"What are you views pertaining to a pastor being prosperous?"
          (Double portion, or, double trouble)
"If prosperity is permitted then are the limits to how much a pastor should prosper?

Personal view;
I learned early on that our church would always pay our pastor according to the general income(commensurate) of our congregation (blue collar). With additional car, house, insurance allotment etc. Should he work extra, his own time investing, published books, or guest revival speaker etc, receiving gift offerings would not affect salary.
We did not incorporate the age old idea of keeping the preacher poor and humble.

There are many Godly preachers gifted/talented that publish their works/books that generate large income, and guest speaking. I know there are many that donate millions from book sales to the ministry.
Each is solely  accountable to God, concerning how acquired.. And to their flock concerning being a good shepherd. Not to me. A workman is worthy of his hire.

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine"  1 Timothy 5:17

"Is the means of any pastor's prosperity relevant or important?"

I would think not save that it affects/hinders his responsibilities as a shepherd, and, as his personal testimony toward his sheep. Obviously the means are important, just as this particular thread here illustrates how prosperity televangelist display what I would think cause many to distrust preachers/pastors in general. The means should reflect Godly means, however God leads them. Otherwise, none of my business.

"Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly"  James 3:1

With this scripture to guide them, they have to be doubly sure of their teachings.
Another reason to insure our pastors receive enough and then some that they may have sufficient time to study and  spend the time wisely tending  the flock.
I have a close personal friend, who was asst. pastor, then surrendered to the ministry about forty years ago, a faith ministry. Missionary work, counseling, chaplain, stand in pulpit for pastors, revivals, street preaching etc. Wherever the Lord leads. Worked part time on my construction sites to help make ends meet. A total faith ministry, never charges a dime. A walk to the mailbox was a walk of expectation. And it was God who always filled the purse.  And he considers himself prosperous in the important matters, and not so much monetarily.

"Is how the prosperity is managed or spent relevant or important?"

Again, other than how it would affect his flock or his testimony, I do not think so. This includes the honest and moral precepts of God as ruling agent.
What anyone does to acquire and spend their money is not my business. Unless it affect in some way  me or my family I'm responsible to. (including my fellow church members)

What are the alternatives (once the prosperity has been attained)? 
How might that which is be changed?

Not sure I fully understand, Josheb.
He could choose to consume upon himself, or start many neat ministries to meet the spiritual/physical need of others. Pass it on as the spirit leads. Buy his first new car for his wife. Start satellite churches where needed etc.?  Wouldn't that be cool.
I believe prosperity, coming into a lot of money, does not change a person.
It only reveals them.   Either way.

 

 

 

[appy]

I agree with missmuffet that those who preach and teach are held to a higher standard. I think the thing that bothers people so much is not the amount, but that there are those who obtain the money under pretenses. And how these t.v preachers conduct themselves when they are not in front of a camera.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Benny Hinn's nephew, Costi, has in recent years been speaking out and encouraging his uncle to renounce the grievous doctrines he was teaching as well as the money. Because the money was being obtained under pretenses. Costi has pointed out in some interviews that there is a point in which wealth is no longer viewed as a blessing, but greed.

1 Corinthians 1:26
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

Costi is no stranger to the vast wealth his uncle raked in, for Costi has said that he, himself was prosperous, along with his uncle. Not all prosperity has God's blessing attached to it. In the gospels, Jesus blasted many of the religious leaders for the pretense and games they played as well as how they obtained much of their wealth

Romans 11:9
And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap,  a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

Matthew 23:14
They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.

Matthew 23:14
They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Philippians 4:11-13
11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

 

[Hopefully]

“Then Jesus said to his followers, “The truth is, it will be very hard for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom. Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:23-24‬ ‭
 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

“19:23-24 Though Christ spoke so strongly, few that have riches do not trust in them. How few that are poor are not tempted to envy! But men's earnestness in this matter is like their toiling to build a high wall to shut themselves and their children out of heaven.

It should be satisfaction to those who are in a low condition, that they are not exposed to the temptations of a high and prosperous condition. If they live more hardly in this world than the rich, yet, if they get more easily to a better world, they have no reason to complain.

Christ's words show that it is hard for a rich man to be a good Christian, and to be saved. The way to heaven is a narrow way to all, and the gate that leads into it, a strait gate; particularly so to rich people. More duties are expected from them than from others, and more sins easily beset them. It is hard not to be charmed with a smiling world. Rich people have a great account to make up for their opportunities above others.

It is utterly impossible for a man that sets his heart upon his riches, to get to heaven. Christ used an expression, denoting a difficulty altogether unconquerable by the power of man. Nothing less than the almighty grace of God will enable a rich man to get over this difficulty.”

“few that have riches do not trust in them.“

Most rich people trust in their riches verses trusting in God.

“How few that are poor are not tempted to envy!”

Most poor people are tempted to envy the rich.

“Don’t let me tell lies. And don’t make me too rich or too poor—give me only enough food for each day.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:8‬ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Hopefully

[BibleStudent100]

Many of these preachers peddle pop psychology and dole out smooth words to tickle ears unreceptive to unvarnished Bible truth.  This text comes to mind:  "They say to the seers, ‘Do not see,’ And to the visionaries, ‘Do not tell us truthful visions. Tell us flattering things; envision deceptive illusions."' (Isaiah 30:10).

Christian preachers should do as Jesus instructed: “You received free, give free.” They do as Peter instructed: “Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock.”—Matthew 10:8; 1 Peter 5:2, 3.
 

[Dennis1209]

18 hours ago, Starise said:

These clearly fall into the category where there is no doubt any bible believing Christian should be looking somewhere else to attend church, s0 there are extremes and everything in between when it comes to how well off pastors are.

Good morning. I would like to get your thoughts on something, pertaining to what I emphasized above in your post. But first a little background for clarity.

Over the years, my church has had several splits, with some of the congregation leaving for other churches, some stop going to church at all. I was not around for any of them except for the last split. This is nothing new, it has been happening in churches for centuries, and continues to happen, that is one reason for all the denominations and offshoots. 

Mentioning the reason(s) for this last 'division' is not really relevant to my point or question, other than I was one of those whom left this church for a couple of months or so, then returned. The Holy Spirit was whispering in my ear in the beginning when I was searching for a home church, and I think He whispered in my ear and convinced me to return to my church.

Anyway to the point: I have read and studied the book of Revelation, probably more than any other book in the Bible. Studying our Sunday School lesson for tomorrow, on Revelation 3:1-6; one of the seven churches Jesus personally wrote to, Sardis. Absolutely nothing good is said about this church, they are 'dead', they are admonished to repent, or else! We are not told specifically how many or what percentage of true born again faithful believers were still there, but there is a small remnant still left in that congregation. 

Then for the first time it hit me. Jesus did not tell the faithful remnant in Sardis to flee to another church, start a different church, or stop going to that church. Those faithful Christians that remained in that church, and did not defile themselves in that church, had nothing to fear or to worry about.

So... What is the application for today in our modern times, with everything evil happening in many of the churches? For instance, I know the false teaching and practices occurring in the Catholic Church and other denominations. I know there is still a remnant of faithful true born again Christians attending them. 

Based on the seven churches in Asia-minor Jesus personally wrote to [which I believe is a representation of the entire church age], what He said, and what He did not say to those 7 churches. At what point do we leave a church, or should we?

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning. I would like to get your thoughts on something, pertaining to what I emphasized above in your post. But first a little background for clarity.

Over the years, my church has had several splits, with some of the congregation leaving for other churches, some stop going to church at all. I was not around for any of them except for the last split. This is nothing new, it has been happening in churches for centuries, and continues to happen, that is one reason for all the denominations and offshoots. 

Mentioning the reason(s) for this last 'division' is not really relevant to my point or question, other than I was one of those whom left this church for a couple of months or so, then returned. The Holy Spirit was whispering in my ear in the beginning when I was searching for a home church, and I think He whispered in my ear and convinced me to return to my church.

Anyway to the point: I have read and studied the book of Revelation, probably more than any other book in the Bible. Studying our Sunday School lesson for tomorrow, on Revelation 3:1-6; one of the seven churches Jesus personally wrote to, Sardis. Absolutely nothing good is said about this church, they are 'dead', they are admonished to repent, or else! We are not told specifically how many or what percentage of true born again faithful believers were still there, but there is a small remnant still left in that congregation. 

Then for the first time it hit me. Jesus did not tell the faithful remnant in Sardis to flee to another church, start a different church, or stop going to that church. Those faithful Christians that remained in that church, and did not defile themselves in that church, had nothing to fear or to worry about.

So... What is the application for today in our modern times, with everything evil happening in many of the churches? For instance, I know the false teaching and practices occurring in the Catholic Church and other denominations. I know there is still a remnant of faithful true born again Christians attending them. 

Based on the seven churches in Asia-minor Jesus personally wrote to [which I believe is a representation of the entire church age], what He said, and what He did not say to those 7 churches. At what point do we leave a church, or should we?

Regarding the congregation in the town of Sardis: there was only one congregation, in any given town, in the NT, so, unless they moved to a different town, there was no other congregation to go to.

[David1701]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Source for that? Some cities were so large (like Ephesus) it is likely there were several house gatherings (congregations) and attendance or "membership" overlapped.

The source is the Bible.  Congregation/assembly (ekklesia) is always singular in a town and always plural in a region.

Quote

We also know very early on personal affiliations developed whereby some believers aligned with different apostles. This happened as early as 53-54 when the letter to Corinth (another big city) was written. 

These were factions within the one assembly.

Quote

 

Otherwise, I believe you are correct: in most towns and cities there were not multiple congregations. I would go even further to say we in modernity use words like "church," "congregation," "sect," etc. much differently than the first century believers did.

 

There was only the body of Christ in each locale.  There were no denominations.  If you left the assembly in your town, there was nowhere else to go, unless you moved to another town.

I don't really like to use "church", because, to many people, it means a building or a denomination; and it certainly is not a good translation; but, the Greek word "ekklesia" means "called out ones" and was used, secularly, to refer to a town council.

Quote

 

Many of our ops would be non-sensical to them. In the particular case of this op the idea of "super rich" would be unfathomable, especially in the context of a private individual.

First world problem. 

Not a first century problem. 

 

Yes, this is certainly true.

Edited July 3, 2021 by David1701

[Alive]

I like this conversation.

[Equippers]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:02 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I know a little about Joyce Meyer's and watched her a few times, and statements she has made. I'm not here to criticize, but to ask a question?

Is constantly preaching the "prosperity Gospel", instead of preaching the Salvation message, preaching "another Gospel?" 

Acts 20:29 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

hello

you asked a good question.

I don't know how to answer your question properly.

I think Joyce Meyer preaches a lot of good things such as forgiveness and spiritual battles.

yes, there has been some of her messages in the past that made me uncomfortable

but I don't think we should be throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak....

but I do agree with you in a sense that if a pastor is writing books that contain false gospel that they know tickle people's ears to sale books, then that is wrong.

[Equippers]

On 7/2/2021 at 1:59 PM, Arrabon said:

@Equippers my brother.

My original post was an honest question, and I am reading all the posts here for some good input.

I see this subject discussed quite a bit from time to time, in different settings, and feel I should have a conviction on it, if that's possible, or at least some knowledge.

Still growing. Still learning. Won't ever have all the answers, and I'll even be wrong at times.

I have been wrong in the past, and I will be in the future.

Such is imperfection.

Arrabon

hello

yes I know you were asking a honest question.

i hope I did not gave you the impression that I think you weren't

God bless