Omniscience v Determinism

[Diaste]

Are these the same thing?

Does omniscience result in determinism?

What are the scriptural facts on God's omniscience?

Apologies, I need to catch up on this.

Thanks!

[LearningToLetGo]

Human beings experience time and space. Our focus of awareness is limited to here and now. God has no such limitation. As such, I don't think it is possible for us to truly understand the question you ask.

[Sower]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Are these the same thing?

Does omniscience result in determinism?

What are the scriptural facts on God's omniscience?

Apologies, I need to catch up on this.

Thanks!

Omniscience;  the state of knowing everything

Determinism  the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. (God?)

To me they are obviously not the same.
My thinking tells me each can exist without the other.
Scripture says God knows all things.
Scripture refers to man's free will, and having choice.
God is light, and can not lie.
Some (men)refer to no free will (and here we go:)

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, LearningToLetGo said:

Human beings experience time and space. Our focus of awareness is limited to here and now. God has no such limitation. As such, I don't think it is possible for us to truly understand the question you ask.

I agree with this. But there must be something said about how God sees creation in relation to His knowledge; knowledge which must have preexisted creation.

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, Sower said:

Omniscience;  the state of knowing everything

Determinism  the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. (God?)

To me they are obviously not the same.
My thinking tells me each can exist without the other.
Scripture says God knows all things.
Scripture refers to man's free will, and having choice.
God is light, and can not lie.
Some (men)refer to no free will (and here we go:)

And I agree. Omniscience does not beget determinism. Do you of any sort of example from scripture that would help me?

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Are these the same thing?

Does omniscience result in determinism?

What are the scriptural facts on God's omniscience?

Apologies, I need to catch up on this.

Thanks!

The Bible teaches determinism.

Eph. 1:11 (WEB)  in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will;

Is. 46:9-11 (WEB)

 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is no one else; I am God, and there is none like me;
  10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
  11 calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yes, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Is. 55:8-11 (WEB)

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” says the LORD.

  9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

  10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky,
and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth,
and makes it grow and bud,
and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater;

  11 so shall my word be that goes out of my mouth:
it shall not return to me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.
 

It is determinism that leads to omniscience.

Acts 15:18 (WEB) All of God’s works are known to him from eternity.

Man's will is also not coerced ("free", in that sense); he wills according to his nature.  The unregenerate is a sinner by nature, so he wills to sin.

Eph. 2:1-3 (WEB)

1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,
  2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience;
  3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The regenerate wills to please God, in his spirit, although his flesh battles against this, because there is nothing good in it, due to the fact that our bodies are not resurrected yet.

Rom. 6:17,18 (WEB)

 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered.
  18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 

Rom. 7:22,23 (WEB)

 22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,
  23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom. 7:24-8:2 (WEB)

 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
  25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, the sin’s law. 

8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
  2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Edited July 10, 2021 by David1701

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

And I agree. Omniscience does not beget determinism. Do you of any sort of example from scripture that would help me?

God is in control, even at this moment...

Omniscience

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Psalm 147:5

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

determinism, not

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Revelation 3:20

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua 24:15

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 7:17

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  Mark 8:34

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.   Genesis 4:7-8

 

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3; 16

 

 

[David1701]

46 minutes ago, Sower said:

God is in control, even at this moment...

Omniscience

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Psalm 147:5

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

 

 

Yes.

Quote

 

determinism, not

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Revelation 3:20

 

We always need to take Scripture in context.  Rev. 3:20 was written to a Christian assembly and about that Christian assembly.  It was not written about unbelievers at all.

Quote

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua 24:15

Again, we need to take this in its context.  Josh. 24:15 was, sarcastically, asking the Israelites (i.e. God's OT people, not unbelievers) to choose between two sets of idols, if they did not want to serve the LORD.  This was, anyway, under law and nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith.

Quote

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 7:17

This is a statement of fact, about those who choose to the do the will of God.  It says absolutely nothing about ability to choose to do the will of God.  We need to look at the Scripture that address man's ability, or inability, in order to find out about that.

Here are a couple of Scriptures that do address the unregenerate man's inability to choose to do God's will.  His inability is because of his unwillingness.

Rom. 3:9-19 (WEB)

9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. 
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”  
13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.”  “The poison of vipers is under their lips;”  
14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”  
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood. 
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 
17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.”  
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”  
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Rom. 8:7-9 (WEB)

7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

Quote

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  Mark 8:34

Again, this speaks about those who are willing to come after Jesus; but, it says absolutely nothing about who is able to be thus willing.

Quote

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.   Genesis 4:7-8

This is about sinful man's responsibility.  The correct response is to admit your inability and cry out to God for mercy.

 

Quote

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3; 16

Yet again, this says absolutely nothing about who is able to believe in Jesus.  It just says that everyone who does believe in him will not perish but have eternal life.

There is not even one of the Scriptures you have quoted that addresses the subject of the condition of man's will; but there are Scriptures that address that subject, and you not even mentioned one of them.

[Rapture Bound]

In any possible world that God could have selected from, there would always be some who will reject that offer (they are given free moral agency and are granted the ability to rebel, but are not free from the consequences...therefore they possess a limited free-will).

"How can God know for certain the choice we will make, yet state it as being contingent on our making a free will choice, since that is miss leading us into thinking we have a true free will choice in the matter and not something God has decided for us?"

God uses His "middle knowledge" to acquire that knowledge. His knowing of the future choices that any person will make does not cause or determine their actions in any way. Middle knowledge differs from simple foreknowledge in the sense that not only does God know what will happen, but also what would happen in any given set of circumstances. (that is the unique contribution of Molinism). God could not be truly Sovereign in the sense of being in full control and orchestrating His plan of salvation by the use of foreknowledge alone... middle knowledge must be utilized.

Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

"It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself."...... Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation.

If you google in the title, "On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective - Gracepoint Church - San Francisco - by ReasonableFaith.Org - June 11,2020 - YouTube", you can view an excellent presentation of the principles provided by Molinism (such as the concept of "middle knowledge" and God's selection of "possible worlds" by use of His middle knowledge).

[Raven]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Are these the same thing?

Does omniscience result in determinism?

What are the scriptural facts on God's omniscience?

Apologies, I need to catch up on this.

Thanks!

I keep it simple, God is Truth. Truth IS, and cannot be compromised, and therefore unconditional. Unconditional faith and love is being true.