The Temple of Flesh or the Temple of Stone?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Consider this verse:

• Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses.  Matthew 23:1-2

Was there a literal "chair of Moses" or is it a reference to their position of authority?

The man of sin will have no authority over the body of Christ but that won't stop him from pretending and deceiving.

Will there be another physical tabernacle / temple built before the millennial kingdom?  Possibly.  There is certainly an effort to build one.  But there doesn't need to be for 2 Thess 2 to be fulfilled.

Clearly a position of authority is what Paul refers to in this case but it's not an umbrella under which all cases are similar. 

The language in 2 Thess 2:4 is unambiguous. If we are to take

"opposing and exalting himself above all gods"

And

"proving in a display that he is God."

As literal then 'sitting in the Temple' is just as literal.

[Diaste]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect, and that error will cause a variety of further errors. And, fundamentally, I don't believe you believe that because I know you believe scripture speaks as a whole and does so without contradiction. 

However, I'll work with what you've said because you've just said Paul was writing about the coming of Christ gathering of the brothers to whom he was writing. There is no "our" in that verse. Specifically directed to the brothers (and sisters) to whom he was writing in the first century. 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.  Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.  It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from you.  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word."

 

The many mentions of "you" in that passage are references to his original first century audience, not those of us living in the 21st century. He was writing about conditions/events that relevant to his original audience. If what you say is true then the only context that matters is that of the very first verse, but it is not sound to cut up God's word to fit our need so the first sentence is what we should look at. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." 

 

Not a single word about the 21st century. Plenty of words about those living in the first century. Paul was concerned they might be shaken or disturbed by some message Christ had come. It was a recurring problem in the first century. Paul also wrote about false teachers say the resurrection had occurred. Paul told his Thessalonian audience Christ's coming would not happen unless (not "until") the lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed. That guy has got to sit in the temple. There were two temples standing when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. Nothing in the entire passage, the entire epistle, the entire New Testament, or the entire Bible states another temple will be built. In context - the only context that matters according to you - in context there are only two options: the temple of stone that was still standing in Jerusalem or the temple God built out of regenerate and indwelt believers in the resurrected Son. 

But....

...as we can all see...

...many in this thread leave that context; they leave the clearly stated context of the scripture. Should we not bend our eschatology to scripture rather than bend scripture to fit our eschatology (especially whenever that eschatology was literally invented by a guy in the 19th century)? 

Sure it does.

Yes, it is all true but, no, it does not stray from the op. Whole scripture never strays from any part of scripture. 

In the middle of a reply it just disappeared. I'll try again later. 

 

[FortifiedbyFaith]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know. Paul was Jew. Met Jesus. Taught by Apostles. He said "So he will seat[To sit down] himself in the temple of God, proclaiming[prove] himself to be God."

That seems pretty plain to me.

 

There is this - 

Daniel 9:27

Amplified Bible

‘“And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

 

King James Version

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make itdesolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Do you see in Amplified the symbology of the underlined words. Wings of abomination - which is the same in the american medical symbol. Wings above two snakes twined around a pole. This is also part of the satyr statute that was dedicated in 2015 in Detroit. This amplified version was published in the 1940’s. It means everything now in the days of transhumanism being endorsed by the medical field. See how obscure KJV is compared to it? GOD wants HIS word understood. 
 

We are GOD’s temple - when we invite a foreign god in HE will vacate or make desolate as HE is a jealous GOD and will not share a temple. Satan has sat down on the throne of over 6.6 billion souls now. This is the line for the wheat and tares.

Edited November 14, 2021 by FortifiedbyFaith

[Last Daze]

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

Something that has been for a long time very interesting to me is something that scholarship has completely missed.  I have yet to find what I am fixing to point out commented on in print or in the web world or anywhere for that matter---except by me.  Consider afresh from Revelation 11:

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What did John measure?  No physical dimensions are ever given.

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now, while the "temple of God" is here mentioned and there is worship going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  I submit that the primary Scripture reference that you use for your opening post gives us some of the most valuable commentary directly related to what John sees going on here.

I think you're on to something.  What's being measured is spiritual in nature, not physical.  I see it as a reference to the spiritual temple of God, the body of Christ, being measured by the trials associated with the time of great tribulation.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:31 AM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect, and that error will cause a variety of further errors. And, fundamentally, I don't believe you believe that because I know you believe scripture speaks as a whole and does so without contradiction. 

However, I'll work with what you've said because you've just said Paul was writing about the coming of Christ gathering of the brothers to whom he was writing. There is no "our" in that verse. Specifically directed to the brothers (and sisters) to whom he was writing in the first century. 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.  Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.  It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from you.  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word."

 

The many mentions of "you" in that passage are references to his original first century audience, not those of us living in the 21st century. He was writing about conditions/events that relevant to his original audience. If what you say is true then the only context that matters is that of the very first verse, but it is not sound to cut up God's word to fit our need so the first sentence is what we should look at. 

Hi, Josheb.

If I may, regardless of the many times that the words "you," "your", and "us," are used as translation words in this passage, one will find that none of them refer to the coming of the Messiah directly. Instead, Paul was trying to head off a growing error by some who claimed that the Messiah had already come back, and Paul was saying He hadn't done so, yet.

His words were, "that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come (Greek: hoos hoti enesteeken hee heemera tou Kuriou = "as that is-present the day of-the Lord").  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first (Greek: ean mee elthee hee apostasia prooton = "if not-[until] shall-have-come the defection/revolt first" or "if the defection/revolt shall- not -have-come first"), and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

He was telling them, "Relax. You haven't missed His coming."

That word "lawlessness," by the way, refers to an antagonistic stance against the Law of Mosheh (Moses), the Torah.

On 11/12/2021 at 9:31 AM, Josheb said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." 

 

Not a single word about the 21st century. Plenty of words about those living in the first century. Paul was concerned they might be shaken or disturbed by some message Christ had come. It was a recurring problem in the first century. Paul also wrote about false teachers say the resurrection had occurred. Paul told his Thessalonian audience Christ's coming would not happen unless (not "until") the lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed. That guy has got to sit in the temple. There were two temples standing when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. Nothing in the entire passage, the entire epistle, the entire New Testament, or the entire Bible states another temple will be built. In context - the only context that matters according to you - in context there are only two options: the temple of stone that was still standing in Jerusalem or the temple God built out of regenerate and indwelt believers in the resurrected Son. 

But....

...as we can all see...

...many in this thread leave that context; they leave the clearly stated context of the scripture. Should we not bend our eschatology to scripture rather than bend scripture to fit our eschatology (especially whenever that eschatology was literally invented by a guy in the 19th century)? 

Sure it does.

Yes, it is all true but, no, it does not stray from the op. Whole scripture never strays from any part of scripture. 

The text is open-ended. All Paul was saying is that the Lord had not come back, yet. He's not telling us when these things MAY happen; he's just saying that they are still in their future, whenever they end up happening.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Retrobyter
taking out an unnecessary word

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, FortifiedbyFaith said:

There is this - 

Daniel 9:27

Amplified Bible

‘“And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

 

King James Version

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Do you see in Amplified the symbology of the underlined words. Wings of abomination - which is the same in the american medical symbol. Wings above two snakes twined around a pole. This is also part of the satyr statute that was dedicated in 2015 in Detroit. This amplified version was published in the 1940’s. It means everything now in the days of transhumanism being endorsed by the medical field. See how obscure KJV is compared to it? GOD wants HIS word understood. 
 

We are GOD’s temple - when we invite a foreign god in HE will vacate or make desolate as HE is a jealous GOD and will not share a temple. Satan has sat down on the throne of over 6.6 billion souls now. This is the line for the wheat and tares.

Shalom, FortifiedbyFaith.

There's a better way to read Dani'el 9:27:

"And He (the Messiah of verse 26) shall strengthen the [Davidic] covenant with many for one Seven (of years),
but in the middle of the Seven, He shall cause the sacrifice and the gift to cease, and for the abominations [of the scribes and Pharisees] spreading out [like the feathers] of a wing, He shall make it [the city] desolate (empty; forsaken), even until the conclusion, and that [punishment] decided shall be poured out upon those made desolate."

[Diaste]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect, and that error will cause a variety of further errors. And, fundamentally, I don't believe you believe that because I know you believe scripture speaks as a whole and does so without contradiction. 

How is it incorrect to understand the context is a thesis statement so plain anyone can understand what Paul is going to talk about? And it is specifically directed to 'brothers' as Paul says, '...you, brethren...'

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

However, I'll work with what you've said because you've just said Paul was writing about the coming of Christ gathering of the brothers to whom he was writing. There is no "our" in that verse. Specifically directed to the brothers (and sisters) to whom he was writing in the first century. 

No, I didn't say, "Paul was writing about the coming of Christ gathering of the brothers to whom he was writing." I'm not limiting the audience, you are. 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.  Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.  It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from you.  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word."

 

The many mentions of "you" in that passage are references to his original first century audience, not those of us living in the 21st century. He was writing about conditions/events that relevant to his original audience. If what you say is true then the only context that matters is that of the very first verse, but it is not sound to cut up God's word to fit our need so the first sentence is what we should look at. 

Notably Paul refers to 'you, brethren' in verse 1. In Greek that would be 'humas adelphos'. Adelphos is a brother, member of the same religious community and especially a fellow Christian. This letter is beyond the scope of the group in Thessalonica and is addressed to the fellow Christians of that religious community. This idea would apply to all the churches in Asia even though it was not written directly to them as it's 'fellow Christians' and not 'you of Thessalonica in the 1st century'.

Interestingly Paul didn't pen the word, 'humas' in 2 Thess 2:1-17. It does not appear in the lexicon. I could go check my Greek bible but it's early, first cup and all that.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." 

 

Not a single word about the 21st century. Plenty of words about those living in the first century. Paul was concerned they might be shaken or disturbed by some message Christ had come. It was a recurring problem in the first century. Paul also wrote about false teachers say the resurrection had occurred. Paul told his Thessalonian audience Christ's coming would not happen unless (not "until") the lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed.

That word your translating to 'unless' is spot on. Paul used 'ean' here. The coming of Christ is conditional and this is the idea Paul was teaching. Only if the man of sin sits in the Temple does the Coming and gathering happen. This could be anytime and is not promised to the readers or hearers contemporary to Paul. In fact it could not be as 'ean' does not carry a time stamp and by it's usage indefinite.

The Coming and the gathering have not occurred as we would know that even if it happened 1000 years past. Therefore the man of sin sitting the the Temple has not occurred, and it must. And it must also be in proximity to each other as the Lord destroys this person. Unless the man of sin is immortal there must be less than about 120 years between the two. Since this is related to the end of the age when Christ returns and the saints are gathered the gap is narrowed to 7 years.

Even less time from other relevant scriptures.

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

That guy has got to sit in the temple. There were two temples standing when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.

And then there are two options: the man of sin sitting in a stone Temple[or a tent or whatever], or the man of sin sitting in the Temple of flesh. 

If it's the Temple destroyed in 70 AD when did the man of sin sit in that Temple and give proof he is God and who recorded it?

And if the Temple in question is the body corporate and individual I'm just not going to able to take that proposition seriously.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

 

Nothing in the entire passage, the entire epistle, the entire New Testament, or the entire Bible states another temple will be built. In context - the only context that matters according to you - in context there are only two options: the temple of stone that was still standing in Jerusalem or the temple God built out of regenerate and indwelt believers in the resurrected Son. 

The former is truth and the latter ludicrous. So then if only the 1st option remains when did it happen? Where is the proof? Who recorded it? Who sat in the Temple?

 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

...many in this thread leave that context; they leave the clearly stated context of the scripture. Should we not bend our eschatology to scripture rather than bend scripture to fit our eschatology (especially whenever that eschatology was literally invented by a guy in the 19th century)? 

I think this does a disservice to Paul. Paul wrote it. You see it evidenced by this reply. Just because a guy in the 19th century came up with an idea doesn't make that idea prima facie incorrect. Just like me he probably noticed there was no proof of the Temple profaned by a guy claiming to be God. It's not too hard to see if it didn't happen, and it still must happen, then it is yet to happen.

On 11/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, Josheb said:

Sure it does.

Yes, it is all true but, no, it does not stray from the op. Whole scripture never strays from any part of scripture. 

I don't believe you have addressed the Which and the When. You say it must have occurred, you say there are two options. But which option and when?

[FortifiedbyFaith]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FortifiedbyFaith.

There's a better way to read Dani'el 9:27:

"And He (the Messiah of verse 26) shall strengthen the [Davidic] covenant with many for one Seven (of years),
but in the middle of the Seven, He shall cause the sacrifice and the gift to cease, and for the abominations [of the scribes and Pharisees] spreading out [like the feathers] of a wing, He shall make it [the city] desolate (empty; forsaken), even until the conclusion, and that [punishment] decided shall be poured out upon those made desolate."

Not a better reading of this as you completely discount the vax. That is part of the great deception and you have bought into it by discounting it. Polluting the temple within man. Now the Noahide laws are being called upon by all the nations by the Sanhedrin to be accepted as part of the nations anointing. Especially, the christian nations. Read the article here:

https://www.israel365news.com/201272/sanhedrin-begins-to-prepare-oil-to-anoint-king-messiah-kohen-gadol/

This would be the completion of the first part of prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Revelation “causeth all men to take the mark” - in THE VAX and the second part of Revlation is “causeth all men to worship” - with the NOAHIDE LAWS when enforced will complete both parts of the prophecy. Who is the beast? The one that was prophesied in Psalms who lies in bed and plots against his enemies, the one who called himself “anointed”, the one who loves the snake poem, the one who calls himself “the father of the vaccine”.  The little horn who loves to toot his own trumpet. He was wounded in the head politically and will rise like the phoenix again to complete his fathers work.

The last laugh by Satan is he disguises all (this is not going to happen like the OSAS and Left Behind crowd think) so al the proud minds of men can not see through his charade of their own making by being “worldly and educated and too intelligent” that enables him to collect souls who are blinded to him along the way. There will be more ThD’s and PHD’s in hell than not.

[not an echo]

On 11/14/2021 at 2:26 PM, Last Daze said:

On 11/13/2021 at 5:47 PM, not an echo said:

Something that has been for a long time very interesting to me is something that scholarship has completely missed.  I have yet to find what I am fixing to point out commented on in print or in the web world or anywhere for that matter---except by me.  Consider afresh from Revelation 11:

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What did John measure?  No physical dimensions are ever given.

Hello Last Daze,

In Revelation 11 John wrote...

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

With what I brought out in my post in mind, John was instructed to do some measuring---with a measuring standard given him of the equipment in Heaven, if you will.  Selah.  He was being instructed to check some things.  It don't matter how things measure out with earth's measuring standards and the equipment we have of this world.  It is by Heaven's measuring standards that the true breadth, and length, and depth, and height can be found.  And, I submit that what John found when he began to measure was way off---WAY OFF.

Isn't it interesting that he was told to measure "them that worship therein"?  I'm not sure what "physical dimensions" this might have discovered, but there would have been some dimensions that were certainly relevant, don't you think?  He was told to measure the temple and what was going on within it.  It was to this that his focus was brought to bear.

It's just like with us, being the temple we are.  What matters with us is the temple we are and what is going on within us---from Heaven's perspective or standard.  This is of much, much greater concern to God than what is going on with those of the world around us, who "tread" the things of God "under foot" (Rev. 11:2).

Now, please don't mistake me because of the little personal application that I just made.  The temple being spoken of in Revelation 11:1 is not the temple of our body.  It is the temple of II Thessalonians 2:4.  And, IMHO, based on what we find in Scripture, it will be very much in existence for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.

And, there's certainly more to this related, but not for this thread...

On 11/14/2021 at 2:26 PM, Last Daze said:

On 11/13/2021 at 5:47 PM, not an echo said:

Now, while the "temple of God" is here mentioned and there is worship going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  I submit that the primary Scripture reference that you use for your opening post gives us some of the most valuable commentary directly related to what John sees going on here.

I think you're on to something.  What's being measured is spiritual in nature, not physical.  I see it as a reference to the spiritual temple of God, the body of Christ, being measured by the trials associated with the time of great tribulation.

I would agree with you that "What's being measured is spiritual in nature, not physical", at least mostly.  But, I'm really struggling to understand how what you say beginning with "I see..." connects with the II Thessalonians 2:4/Revelation 11:1 fit that I pointed out---which is by far the major thing.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Never said that did. What I did say is those plural personal pronouns were referring to their original audience, the readers of the first century. Sometimes the personal pronoun "you" can have a much wider direct meaning and application such as "...you believers throughout the known world..."or "...these things I have written apply to all of you in God's kingdom..." 

But that is not the case in 2 Thes. 2. Those you's directly apply to the specified audience. The principles ensconced in those words apply to all Christians of any and all eras but they were written directly to, for, and about the 2 Thessalonians audience (who just happen to be one of the two temples that were standing at the time the epistle was written ).

 I completely agree and have argued that position many times. That means, in all likelihood, the lawless man was a Jew, not a Roman. 

No, it is not.

Yes, it is, my friend. He never said it would be in their own personal future; he was just making the point that Yeshua` had not returned, yet.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, Paul is saying much more than "Jesus has not yet returned, but he will," but it is correct to say he is saying it will be in their future, not ours. AND Paul seems to be doing something unusual;  Christ's return conditional . He says, "...because if not shall have come the apostacy first and the man of lawlessness. the son of destruction, have been revealed..." 

Well, this is an error in understanding the Greek wording. The Greek word translated "if," "ean," is immediately followed by the negative, "mee." Together, they mean "except" or "unless," when followed with a substantive, as they are in this passage. Thus, they are together translated as "except" in the King James Version, and as "until" in the New International Version, the New Living Translation, the Berean Study Bible, and the Berean Literal Bible, not "if." There's no "if-then" clause in this verse that would yield to a causal relationship; therefore, the fulfillment of the one doesn't lead to the fulfillment of the other.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Implying if the lawlessness man does not appear then neither will Christ come . Many of the more modern translations say, "until" but the KJV, NAS, ESV and a few others are more consistent to the transliteration of the Greek I just posted. They say "except" or "unless." It is the ONLY way to make the prediction for-distant-future: you need not worry about having missed Jesus coming. He has not returned and he will not return unless the lawless man of destruction is revealed. Then you can worry. 

No, that wasn't the intent. He was alleviating their fears, not postponing them.

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

But even that does not change the fact everything in the entire chapter is to, for, and about those to whom he was originally writing directly and not us here in the 21st century.

Yes, ... but that is because the Thessalonikans were getting teachings and letters as though from Paul or the other Apostles that Yeshua` HAD already returned.

When Paul teaches these things in 2 Thessalonians, he is prophesying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God, and as in every other case of prophecy, there's no clear teaching as to WHEN these events will occur, and he certainly was NOT saying they would indeed happen in their lifetimes. He was more nebulously saying they would happen SOMETIME in the future, as does most every prophecy.