The Temple of Flesh or the Temple of Stone?

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, FortifiedbyFaith said:

Not a better reading of this as you completely discount the vax.

Shalom, FortifiedbyFaith.

"Vax?" Please explain; being a computer programmer in the past, the only VAXs I know are "DEC superminicomputers." I doubt that's what you mean. In the 1990s, it began to refer to "vaccinations," but what are you talking about, please?

11 hours ago, FortifiedbyFaith said:

That is part of the great deception and you have bought into it by discounting it. Polluting the temple within man. Now the Noahide laws are being called upon by all the nations by the Sanhedrin to be accepted as part of the nations anointing. Especially, the christian nations. Read the article here:

https://www.israel365news.com/201272/sanhedrin-begins-to-prepare-oil-to-anoint-king-messiah-kohen-gadol/

This would be the completion of the first part of prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Revelation “causeth all men to take the mark” - in THE VAX and the second part of Revelation is “causeth all men to worship” - with the NOAHIDE LAWS when enforced will complete both parts of the prophecy. Who is the beast? The one that was prophesied in Psalms who lies in bed and plots against his enemies, the one who called himself “anointed”, the one who loves the snake poem, the one who calls himself “the father of the vaccine”.  The little horn who loves to toot his own trumpet. He was wounded in the head politically and will rise like the phoenix again to complete his fathers work.

The last laugh by Satan is he disguises all (this is not going to happen like the OSAS and Left Behind crowd think) so al the proud minds of men can not see through his charade of their own making by being “worldly and educated and too intelligent” that enables him to collect souls who are blinded to him along the way. There will be more ThD’s and PHD’s in hell than not.

I haven't "bought into" anything. I've studied Daniel 9:24-27 in the Hebrew, and I'm just telling you that this is a much better interpretation of verse 27 than this nonsense that says that the "he" in the verse refers to some "Antichrist" or "Beast."

The noun antecedent of the verbs in verse 27 (or for those who speak English, the antecedent of the "he" pronouns) goes back to the Mashiyach of verse 26 in particular. In Hebrew, the "prince [that shall come]" of verse 26 ("naagiyd") is the second noun in a noun construct state ("`am naagiyd"). As such, it is there for modification of the first noun ("`am"), meaning "people." That's why the clause is translated as "[the] people of-[the]-prince" in the KJV. The word "naagiyd" does not participate in the verbs of the sentence (which doesn't end at the end of verse 26), and it cannot therefore be the antecedent of these verbs. (No nouns as subjects are in verse 27.)

Bottom line is this: It's the "Messiah," not the "prince," who is the subject of the verbs in verse 27. Thus,

A. The Messiah is the One who "strengthens a covenant with many for one Seven." 
B. The Messiah is the One who "shall bring an end to sacrifice and gift in the middle of the Seven."
C. The Messiah is the One who, "against a spread-out-wing of-abominations, shall-make [Daniel's people and his city] desolate, even until the end."

A. That this is the DAVIDIC Covenant we learn later in Luke 1.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This comes directly from the Davidic Covenant in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17:

2 Samuel 7:8-16 (KJV)

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 

10 "'"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12"'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (If he is twisted as iniquity), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men [the Crucifixion]: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'" 

B. He brought the end of the sacrifice and gift, because the veil in the Temple, which represented His body, was torn down the middle from the top to the bottom. No longer did YHWH God accept animal sacrifices for one's justification by God, his or her "salvation."

C. And, for the wide-spread wing of abominations of the Pharisees and scribes, listed in Matthew 23, He pronounced them "desolate" in verse 38.

His lament begins in verse 37:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Roy, a simple, "Yep, Josh, that's correct," will suffice. I don't need a belabored agreement. Paul was making a conditional statement. It's not particularly germane to the subject of this op; it's just a curious observation. 

Josh, that's NOT correct! It is NOT a conditional statement! An "if-then" conditional statement in Greek is to use the "if" ("ean," a contraction of "ei," meaning "if," and "an," an untranslatable particle that denotes supposition, wish, possibility or uncertainty) separately before, and a "then" ("tote") after. "Ean" with a "mee" and a substantive after it is a SEPARATE construct in Greek. It doesn't mean just "if not"; it means "except" or "unless!"

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The only thing in dispute is the missing word: "their." 

He was more nebulously saying they would happen SOMETIME in their future, not ours. The pronouns are ALL about that first century audience. The pronouns are explicitly identified as those brethren living in Thessalonica. There's not a single word in the entire chapter addressed to anyone else. 

 

Written to, for, and about the Christians living in Thessalonica in the first century? Lots of evidence. Literally at least twenty examples. 

Written to, for, and about Christians living elsewhere in the 21st century? Zero evidence. 

At no time in early history A.D. do we have ECFs telling us that this indeed happened in their lifetimes. It's "open-ended" because, not having been fulfilled, and believing that the prophecies must be fulfilled as God's Word never fails, then this prophecy passes on to the next generation, and has done so up to the current generation.

He was NOT saying that it would definitely happen in their own lifetimes!

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Last Daze,

In Revelation 11 John wrote...

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

With what I brought out in my post in mind, John was instructed to do some measuring---with a measuring standard given him of the equipment in Heaven, if you will.  Selah.  He was being instructed to check some things.  It don't matter how things measure out with earth's measuring standards and the equipment we have of this world.  It is by Heaven's measuring standards that the true breadth, and length, and depth, and height can be found.  And, I submit that what John found when he began to measure was way off---WAY OFF.

Isn't it interesting that he was told to measure "them that worship therein"?  I'm not sure what "physical dimensions" this might have discovered, but there would have been some dimensions that were certainly relevant, don't you think?  He was told to measure the temple and what was going on within it.  It was to this that his focus was brought to bear.

It's just like with us, being the temple we are.  What matters with us is the temple we are and what is going on within us---from Heaven's perspective or standard.  This is of much, much greater concern to God than what is going on with those of the world around us, who "tread" the things of God "under foot" (Rev. 11:2).

Now, please don't mistake me because of the little personal application that I just made.  The temple being spoken of in Revelation 11:1 is not the temple of our body.  It is the temple of II Thessalonians 2:4.  And, IMHO, based on what we find in Scripture, it will be very much in existence for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.

And, there's certainly more to this related, but not for this thread...

I would agree with you that "What's being measured is spiritual in nature, not physical", at least mostly.  But, I'm really struggling to understand how what you say beginning with "I see..." connects with the II Thessalonians 2:4/Revelation 11:1 fit that I pointed out---which is by far the major thing.

I agree mostly here.  What's being measured is spiritual in nature or else we'd have some "cubits" type response from John.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

11:1 And there was given me a reed like a rod, saying: Arise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those that worship in it.

2 And the court that is without the temple leave out and measure it not, for it is given to the Gentiles,

 

 

This temple is not in heaven, because the following verse says it will be occupied by the Gentiles. Obviously, the Gentiles cannot take over the temple in heaven.

 

Zechariah 1:16 "Therefore, thus says the LORD, I have returned to Jerusalem with mercy; my house shall be built in it, declares the LORD of hosts, and the measuring line shall be stretched out over Jerusalem."

[WilliamL]

 

On 11/14/2021 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

I think it to be inescapable there are two temples. The Temple of God which is the true Temple where He dwells, the body corporate and individual, and the false Temple of cold hard stone the truth cannot penetrate.

Actually, there is a third possibility, which I noted in one of my blogs:

" Note: The “topo hagio/holy place” of Matthew 24:15 is not a building: it is a sacred place. Daniel spoke of “your miqdash/sanctuary, which is desolate” (Dan. 9:17), indicating that the site remained sacred even though it was physically desolated: so it is today. “The abomination of desolation” speaks of the defilement of that siteʼs sacredness, due to an idolatrous image or act there. "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

Miqdash/sanctuary in Hebrew is the equivalent to the Greek naos/sanctuary found in 2 Thes. 2 and elsewhere in the NT.

So, taken from the viewpoint of Daniel, Paul's "naos of God" may well merely be the original topo/spot of the Jewish sanctuary, without any building or tent/tabernacle required to fulfill the prophecy.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

The op-relevant point (unless you want me to digress into the numerous reasons why Dispensational Premillennial views of end times should be rejected) is there is no future temple mentioned anywhere in the 2 Thes. 2 text. Nowhere. The facts are there were two temples standing at the time Paul wrote to the Thessalonicans and it was to the first century Thessalonians that he was writing. 

The "disservice" to Paul occurs when what he actually and specifically wrote is dismissed, denied, twisted, manipulated, and/or abused to say something it nowhere states. Darby literally invented a new hermeneutic. His own hermeneutic; a hermeneutic no one else used. He then used his own personally invented hermeneutic to divide scripture in ways it had never before been divided and as a consequence he literally invented his own theology. His own personally-invented theology made end times its center. 

He set himself up over the plain reading of God's word. 

And then he taught others to do the same. 

That is a disservice to Paul. 

 

 

The great irony is that Darby believed Jesus would return in his lifetime. The church needed to get its act together because the apocalypse was near. He was incorrect. Instead of discarding the failed prognostications his adherents continued to hope and teach what Darby invented. It has led to a long line of false teachers unlike any other eschatological viewpoint. 

That is a disservice to Paul. 

 

 

 

Paul explicitly identified his audience. The scores of uses of the pronoun "you" are all to, for, and about the audience he explicitly identified and there's not a single temporal marker or audience affiliation in the text that is about anyone living in the 21st century.  

You're right.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Glad to do so with anyone who will acknowledge the facts of scripture. Reluctant to do so with anyone who does not because if a person won't acknowledge the most basic facts of scripture I have no evidence they will do so with the any of scripture. Especially not with those appealing to ridicule and doing so baselessly. 

The text itself identifies its audience. Scores of examples where the pronoun "you" is used indicate this was to, for, and about the first century readers, not the 21st century reader. 

Okay.

 

[Diaste]

On 11/15/2021 at 8:38 AM, Josheb said:

Great question but I think you will have to answer that for yourself because I am the one taking those words plainly; not you.  

 

To whom did I just post those words? To whom am I referring when I use the word, "you"? To whom does it directly apply? 

Yes, the brethren living in Thessalonica in the first century; not the brethren of any future century. 

 

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2:17 
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:  Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;  therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.  This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.  For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,  and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,  dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,  when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.  To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,  so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,  that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.  Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;  that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,  and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,  in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.  It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,  comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." 

 

The yous all refer to that original audience, not us. He wrote, "you," not "they". 

It's not incorrect and I encourage reading to so plainly anyone can understand it. 

 

Got it.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Actually, there is a third possibility, which I noted in one of my blogs:

" Note: The “topo hagio/holy place” of Matthew 24:15 is not a building: it is a sacred place. Daniel spoke of “your miqdash/sanctuary, which is desolate” (Dan. 9:17), indicating that the site remained sacred even though it was physically desolated: so it is today. “The abomination of desolation” speaks of the defilement of that siteʼs sacredness, due to an idolatrous image or act there. "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

Miqdash/sanctuary in Hebrew is the equivalent to the Greek naos/sanctuary found in 2 Thes. 2 and elsewhere in the NT.

So, taken from the viewpoint of Daniel, Paul's "naos of God" may well merely be the original topo/spot of the Jewish sanctuary, without any building or tent/tabernacle required to fulfill the prophecy.

Interesting. In this age we associate the naos with a building. In a physical sense anyway.