Is hell a real place or just a pagan notion adopted by early Christianity?

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I do not draw a direct view of the fiery lake from any specific image Jesus used. Jesus talked about chaff in a furnace, weeds in a fire, and later, in Revelation, of a fiery lake. Without digressing to far afield of the op, we must wonder exactly what kind of fire it might be that destroys bodies and souls. It's not likely to be a physical fire, or a merely physical fire, if it is a fire at all. Physical chains mean nothing to spirits that can walk through walls. Physical fire is likely to have the same limits. 

Agreed. I'm of the opinion that fire elicits imagery of destruction, seeing as how fire upon earth consumes whatever it burns, rendering it to ashes. Destruction/annihilation is the result which scripture points toward. Like yourself, I'm an "annihilationist." My old friend Paul (not the apostle) is not, which is one place where he and I disagree. Not an important matter.
 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Jesus used all four terms (and Tartarus) to talk about the judgment faced. I don't see anything in the gospels distinguishes one image from another or to suggest the locale of one is different from that of another but I'm certainly open to reading that scripture if there is one. 

This might be something to discuss elsewhere, I suppose. Tartarus (a place of imprisonment) is indeed interesting.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Marathoner

[MrBear]

36 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I would add that the imagery is not solely that of the furnace, fire, decaying and burning trash pit, and fiery lake but also the chaff, weeds, and dead. Just as fire consumes to ash, the sinfully dead are being compared to the chaff, weeds, and trash. We must remember in our Christian reading these words were not spoken to the regenerate redeemed. It can be a place where we mistakenly read the text egocentrically. These teachings should bring us to tears of sadness for those lost to the flames and, coupled with the inestimable love of God in which we have been found, provoke us to evangelism if only by the manner in which we think, speak and live.  

 

And, to tie it back to the op, the pagan world had no understanding of a God-man, a God-man dying, a God-man dying for all of humanity, and a salvation that is by grace and not works. The notion of a god that can be reached by mere human effort is not a notion of God.

Well said

the Pagan beliefs are Based  on 

Father God

Mother God

and

Son God

all pagans believe in this principle and worship all 3 .. that is what sets us apart

I would share a short about paganism and its roots since the subject was brought up
PAGANISM

its a short clip sheds light on roots and beliefs of paganism 

SHALOM❤️

Edited November 23, 2021 by MrBear

[Bawb]

On 11/18/2021 at 3:49 PM, missmuffet said:

Hell is the consequence of those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. God doesn't send people to hell they send themselves to hell. 

Abba-Yah does everything He can that no man should perish short of abolishing man's free will. He does not want children who do not love Him of their own free will.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Bawb said:

Abba-Yah does everything He can that no man should perish short of abolishing man's free will. He does not want children who do not love Him of their own free will.

God is not going to take someone to heaven who does not genuinely love Him. That is not love. 

[LearningToLetGo]

The following is my own intuition. Feel free to disregard if it suits you. I won't argue the point.

Anyone with knowledge of prisons knows that inmates invariably turn on each other absent the presence of guards. They form gangs. They develop their own hierarchies. They develop their own currencies and terrorize each other in the most disturbing of ways.

Hell is the place where souls go by their own choice when they reject God. It is like a prison, or perhaps a remote island, far removed from God's presence. It's not actually removed from God's presence -- that's impossible -- but the denizens are allowed to believe it is. As such, it is a place where those who reject God are free to do as they will, and that always ends badly. The souls of the damned tear each other apart, each vying for dominance as the demonic forces egg them on to ever increasing fury.

Sadly, even the souls in hell can be forgiven if they but ask, but by the time they get there they are so corrupted by their own sin that the thought of repentance is anathema to them.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

We are in hell, right now.

The weather is being kept artificially cold,
and there are vast preparations being made for living deep underground,
and the transfer of consciousness into crafted bodies that can withstand great heat.

For in time the Lord God will arrive and turn this place over to fire.

As the day approaches, this place only grows hotter.

We are in hell, right now.

But those who sincerely believe in Christ, will be saved.

-------

"The Lord will cause His glorious voice to be heard...
with the flame of a devouring fire..
For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be crushed."
Isaiah 30:30-31

"And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch,
and the dust into brimstone,
and the land thereof shall become burning pitch

It shall not be quenched night nor day,
the smoke thereof shall go up forever."
Isaiah 34:9-10 [Rev 14:10-11]

"And thou Bethlehem... out of thee shall come to me who is to be Ruler...
And this man [the Messiah]
shall be the peace when the Assyrian comes into our land."
Micah 5:2-5

Christ is the image of the invisible God.

Christ will return and spew fire out of His mouth
defeating the beast and false prophet: Rev 19:14-21.

It is what Isaiah 30:30-31 and 34:9-10 is ultimately alluding to.

"Unto you that fear my name shall the Son of righteousness [the Messiah] arise..
And you shall trampled down the wicked,
they shall be ashes under your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord. "
Malachi 4:3-4

"The righteous shall rejoice when they see the vengeance,
they shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked." Psalm 58:10

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God...
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints." 2 Thess 1:7-10

"Behold the Lord comes with 10,000's of His saints to do doom upon all flesh."
Jude 1:14-15

 

 

 

[Hobie_]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:14 PM, Bawb said:

Is hell a real place or just a pagan notion adopted by early Christianity?

Originally Posted on January 16, 2018 by Yahweh's Restoration Ministries

Is hell a real place or just a pagan notion adopted by early Christianity? Also, does the Bible show that the fallen angels go to hell?

We believe that hell is a real place, but not as most believe. To understand this concept, it’s crucial to understand a few Hebrew and Greek words found in the Old and New testaments.

The Old Testament contains the word “sheol.” It appears 66 times and is rendered in the KJV as, “grave, hell and pit.” It does not refer to a place of ever-burning torment. The Greek equivalent to sheol is “hades.” Even though both words originally referred to the grave or to the place where the righteous and wicked go at death, hades took on a new meaning through Hellenistic influence to include concepts of a place of torture or imprisonment.

Authors Alan F. Johnson and Robert E. Webber explain this transformation in their book, What Christians Believe–A Biblical and Historical Summary: “In the intertestamental period there were significant developments in eschatological themes. The first relates to the development of a compartmental view of sheol. When the righteous and the wicked die, they go to different places. This is to be contrasted with the Old Testament view that sheol is the place where both the righteous and wicked go. Under the growing influence of Greek concepts of a distinct body and soul, some Jews taught that after death ‘the immortal and perishable soul, once detached from the ties of the flesh and thus freed from bondage, flies happily upwards’

…On the other hand the wicked go to sheol, which is now identified with the Greek hades. This region of damnation is also called gehenna, a place of eternal fire (originally the old rubbish heap and a place of child sacrifice south of Mount Zion in Jerusalem). It was known as the Valley of Hinnom,” pp. 423-424.

As this source confirms, sheol and hades originally both referred to the grave. However, as Greek influence spread within the early church, these terms took on new meanings, including separate places for the righteous and wicked. In addition, the concept of an immortal soul was introduced, which is also foreign to Scripture. In fact, the term “immortal soul” never appears in the Bible. Many scholars believe this notion of an immortal soul arose through ancient Egypt, which was later adopted by the Greeks and eventually introduced to the Church.

A third word associated with the concept of “hell” is the Greek “gehenna.” This term refers to the Valley of Hinnom, a large valley positioned on the south side of the city of Jerusalem. It was in this valley where Israel would throw their trash. For this reason, this valley was perpetually burning. As a side note, this is also where Israel sacrificed their children to Molech. It is from this valley and practice where the concept of an ever-burning hell-fire arose.

So while the Bible does confirm a place of fiery judgment, it is not a place of perpetual burning or torment. When the Bible speaks about someone suffering hell-fire or gehenna, it’s referring to their complete destruction.

There are a few key passages confirming that hell-fire does not refer to an ever-burning or perpetual place of torment. For instance, Judah 7 states that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the example of “eternal fire.” Interestingly, Sodom and Gomorrah are no longer burning. In 2016 when we toured the ancient site of Gomorrah, we found only ash and scattered sulfur balls. Nothing else of the ancient city remained.

A similar example in found in Jeremiah 7:20. It states there, “Therefore thus saith my Sovereign Yahweh; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.” This passage is referring to Jerusalem’s destruction by the Babylonians. As with Gomorrah, there is no perpetual fire burning today in Jerusalem.

The phrases “eternal fire” and “shall not be quenched” do not refer to a perpetual or ever-burning hell-fire, but to the totality of Yahweh’s destruction. Sodom and Gomorrah suffered complete annihilation by fire from heaven. In like manner, Judah suffered complete destruction by Babylon.

The concept of ever-burning fire is not biblical, but one that crept in through Greek teachings. It’s important to realize that many of today’s church teachings originated through Hellenistic influence within the early church, including other doctrines such as Sunday worship and many of today’s popular holidays.

There is one last word associated with a place of judgment and that is “Tartaros.” This word is mentioned only once in 2Peter 2:4 and is associated with the place of judgment for the angels who rebelled. Greek mythology also refers to this term and believes it resides under hades. It’s important to realize that this definition is not based on Scripture, but Greek mythology. The Bible itself does not provide a location for this term. It is also unclear from the Greek tense whether this is past or future. Even though the KJV shows this is past tense, this judgment is likely future tense.

A lot of issues were caused in the translation using Greek, which led to much misunderstanding which continues even today..