A Prewrath Rapture question

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, tatwo said:

 

All this umm...controversy....debate over these passages?

1Co 15:50-53 NASB  Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  51  Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,  52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  53  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Either you are talking about two different things here...or you're just being obstinate. 

In any case...it would seem that Paul is clear here. May I ask what is Paul talking about here in the context of your discussion if it is not the obvious? Is it worth all the haughtiness?

Remember....2Ti 2:23-26 NASB  But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.  24  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,  25  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,  26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

It would seem that most of the posters on these forums have ignored Paul's words to Timothy...

Tatwo...:)

You use the words controversy debate, obstinate, haughtiness?

Nobody that I see posting is described by your harsh words

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You use the words controversy debate, obstinate, haughtiness?

   Hello Truth7t7-

    I think tatwo was thinking why would there be so much debate or controversy over these passages. If I am not misunderstanding what he was getting at, it seems he was saying what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 15:50-53 was clear....in other words, it was so straightforward there should be no controversy about what it meant.

However the issue is not about what it means, it is an outright denial it even says what it literally says. 

Like I could quote 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..' and there could ensue discussions about the particulars, but it is an outright denial if I say 'But it doesn't say 'In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth...' 

Blessings to you

    

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You use the words controversy debate, obstinate, haughtiness?

Nobody that I see posting is described by your harsh words

I completely understand why...

Peace Bro.

[WilliamL]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:19 AM, truth7t7 said:

Of course it's valid as seen below, there is no earthly time beyond the 7th Trump/Angel and the final judgement following

The 7th Trump/Angel sounding ushers in the final judgement (The End)

Revelation 11:15-18KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ...

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

On 1/31/2022 at 8:36 AM, transmogrified said:

Hello William-

What do you think the Last Trumpet is?

Thank you- Gary

This whole passage is full of aorist verbs, the interpretation of which can be very subjective on the part of the translator. For example "thy wrath is come": "is come" is the aorist verb ἦλθεν. Here it is translated essentially as a present tense, or as just having been completed.

The problem then arises in that the very same phrase, "the great day of His [God's] wrath is come"/ἦλθεν is found right after the 6th Seal is opened; Rev. 6:17. Some people therefore assert that the time of the 6th Seal is the very same as the time of the 7th Trumpet. All kinds of problems with that. Is this what you believe?

Aorist verbs are usually, with some exceptions, interpreted by translators as simple past tense. So ἦλθεν would then be "came," not "is come." Using that translation and meaning, which I believe is the correct one, requires us to understand that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal. It continues throughout all of the Trumpets, and then all of the Bowls, and is concluded at the 7th Bowl. That is why it is said in Rev. 15: 1, the "seven angels having the seven last plagues [contained in the 7 Bowls] ... in them the wrath of God is completed."

So to sum up: at the 7th Trumpet, the Wrath of God had already come years earlier (3-1/2 times, to be precise). The dead had already been raised. The nations had already been raised, etc., all at the time of the 6th Seal. The one unique thing that occurs at the 7th Trumpet is that, at this time, “The kingdom of this world has become/became [aorist verb] the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ..." In other words, at this point, after the 3-1/2 times of "the time of Jacob's trouble" has been fulfilled, the earthly Davidic Kingdom is reestablished.

So, as I have stated many times before, the Divine Judgment takes place in 4 stages:

1) Judgment of the elohim;

2) Judgment of the Church (e.g., wise and foolish virgins separated): the Seals;

3) Judgment of earthly Israel: the Trumpets; and lastly,

4) Judgment of the Beast and the heathen nations: the Bowls.

For a fuller explanation, read my blog post here:

48. The End Times and the Exodus, Part 1

First of a four-part series that shows how the events of the Israelite Exodus out of Egypt, and their subsequent wilderness sojourn and conquest of Canaan, allegorically portray in great detail the full sequence of events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ. Begins with The 7 Spirits.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by WilliamL

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

For a fuller explanation, read my blog post here:

Here is the quote from Rabbi Eliezer 31:

Quote

The horn of the ram of the left side (was the one) wherein He blew upon Mount Sinai, as it is said, "And it shall come to pass, that when the ram's horn soundeth long" (Josh. 6:5). (The horn) of the right side, which is larger than that of the left, is destined in the future to be sounded in the world that is to come, as it is said, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great trumpet shall be blown" (Isa. 27:13); and it is said, "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth" (Zech. 14:9).

Is the one that is blown in Isaiah 27:13 the last trumpet? 

[WilliamL]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:25 PM, transmogrified said:

Is the one that is blown in Isaiah 27:13 the last trumpet? 

Acrually, I think that trumpet will be a later one, either at the end the 3-1/2 times of Jacob's trouble = 7th Trumpet, or at the Ezek. 38-39 = Zech. 14 = Rev. 19 final war that ends the period of God's Wrath at the 7th Bowl.

The two trumps of God blown from the two holy mountains, Sinai and heavenly Zion, announce the beginning of the two respective eras of judgments, both wherein the Presence descended from heaven. Both eras of judgments had/have three earthly phases: 1) of God's elect, 2) of Israel, and 3) of the nations. Spirit, soul (nephesh), and flesh.

For Israel during the era of the Exodus, these were the times of 1) Exodus 19, 2) Numbers 16, and 3) Joshua 10.

[transmogrified]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:25 PM, transmogrified said:

(The horn) of the right side, which is larger than that of the left, is destined in the future to be sounded in the world that is to come, as it is said, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great trumpet shall be blown" (Isa. 27:13); and it is said, "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth" (Zech. 14:9).

The above quote was given from the blog that was describing what the Last Trumpet was...This was allegedly the 'larger horn' that was allegedly described to be the Last Trumpet.

I say 'allegedly' because the quote from the Rabbi is a Jewish fable and nothing in scripture shows Abraham cut off any of the horns of the ram regardless of which one was smaller or larger.

 

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 2/8/2022 at 8:25 PM, transmogrified said:

Is the one that is blown in Isaiah 27:13 the last trumpet? 

Acrually, I think that trumpet will be a later one

 

From the quote from the blog,  Isaiah 27:13 is shown to be the Last Trumpet, and then it is said that Isaiah 27:13 is a later trumpet? The section in the blog was titled 'The Last Shofar' and there is no later trump after the last trump. 

Quote

Now, according to the prophecy, the greater of the two ram’s/Redeemer’s horns will blown last, at the End of this World-Age. It shall announce the Judgment of God, the Kingdom of the Messiah, the Gathering of Israel, the Resurrection of the dead, and the Redemption of Earth from sin and evil. Perkei Rabbi Eliezer 31; Rosh Hashanah 11b Therefore, it is the Last, Shofar.

From the above quote in the blog, is it not saying the Last Shofar is confirmed by the reference from Perkei Rabbi Eliezer 31 to be Isa. 27:13? If it is not the last shofar, why would it be referenced to in the quote from the Rabbi as being the Last Shofar?

[WilliamL]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:24 AM, transmogrified said:

From the above quote in the blog, is it not saying the Last Shofar is confirmed by the reference from Perkei Rabbi Eliezer 31 to be Isa. 27:13?

No.

On 2/16/2022 at 5:24 AM, transmogrified said:

If it is not the last shofar, why would it be referenced to in the quote from the Rabbi as being the Last Shofar?

Note in the blog the key word "announce." Not, "fulfill."  The Last Shofar/Trumpet, which will take place at the 6th Seal, will begin the whole era of the Wrath of God, not conclude it. That era will take many years to play out.

[transmogrified]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:24 AM, transmogrified said:

Now, according to the prophecy, the greater of the two ram’s/Redeemer’s horns will blown last, at the End of this World-Age. It shall announce the Judgment of God, the Kingdom of the Messiah, the Gathering of Israel, the Resurrection of the dead, and the Redemption of Earth from sin and evil. Perkei Rabbi Eliezer 31; Rosh Hashanah 11b Therefore, it is the Last, Shofar.

 

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 2/16/2022 at 5:24 AM, transmogrified said:

If it is not the last shofar, why would it be referenced to in the quote from the Rabbi as being the Last Shofar?

Note in the blog the key word "announce." Not, "fulfill."  The Last Shofar/Trumpet, which will take place at the 6th Seal, will begin the whole era of the Wrath of God, not conclude it.

The quote said 'the greater of the two ram's horns will be blown last AT the end of this world/ age. 

We were not talking about the fulfillment or conclusion  of the events, we were talking about when the last Trumpet would sound...The above quote states it would be blown last at the end of this world / age. Does the end of this world / age happen at the 6th seal? 

On 2/16/2022 at 5:24 AM, transmogrified said:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great trumpet shall be blown" (Isa. 27:13); and it is said, "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth" (Zech. 14:9).

Blessings to you- Gary

[WilliamL]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:03 AM, transmogrified said:

Does the end of this world / age happen at the 6th seal? 

The Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal. According to Daniel 11:40, "the time of the end" begins when "the King of the South shall thrust at him [the King of the North..." Covered more fully in my recent 2 blogs beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2723-four-dual-witnesses-foretell-early-events-of-“the-time-of-the-end”-part-1/