A Prewrath Rapture question

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

On 2/21/2022 at 10:03 AM, transmogrified said:

Does the end of this world / age happen at the 6th seal? 

The Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal. According to Daniel 11:40, "the time of the end" begins when "the King of the South shall thrust at him [the King of the North..."

Hi WilliamL-

Thanks for your response...

The question was not when will God's wrath begin, but rather if the end of the world / age would occur at the 6th seal.

Both Joel and Acts states that the sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come. The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes and the resurrection of the saints occur also called the end of the age or the harvest. 

The signs of the sun being darkened and the moon not giving her light are fulfilled  at the sixth seal which according to scripture is before the day of the Lord...so does the end of the age happen at the sixth seal or on the day Christ returns at the Second Coming? 

Blessings to you- Gary

[WilliamL]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:42 PM, transmogrified said:

The signs of the sun being darkened and the moon not giving her light are fulfilled  at the sixth seal which according to scripture is before the day of the Lord

Those signs immediately precede the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as Jesus so indicated in Matthew 24:29-31. The 6th seal includes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

[transmogrified]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:44 PM, WilliamL said:

Those signs immediately precede the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as Jesus so indicated in Matthew 24:29-31. The 6th seal includes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Do you then agree that there will be no rapture /  resurrection until that Great and Terrible day of the Lord come? 

[WilliamL]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Do you then agree that there will be no rapture /  resurrection until that Great and Terrible day of the Lord come? 

The Day of the Lord is a term used to describe a number of different events in history, including the Battle of Carchemish in 610 B.C.  Jeremiah 46:2, 10

As far as the End Times goes, it is used in different scriptures to describe both the whole series of events from the 6th Seal to the 7th Bowl, and also the Armageddon battle of the 7th Bowl specifically.

I think this may be due to a peculiar construction in Hebrew, part of its construct chain, which consists of a number of nouns in sequence. When the last noun in the sequence, the absolute noun, is a name, then the former nouns, the construct nouns, must always be definite. That is, they must have "the" before them. Since YHWH is a name, there is not a ready way to say "a day of the Lord/YHWH." They are all "the Day of the Lord." Which creates a lot of misunderstanding for those not familiar with Hebrew; because, as I noted above, there are actually a number of different ones.

Edited March 3, 2022 by WilliamL

[transmogrified]

On 3/3/2022 at 12:32 PM, WilliamL said:

That is, they must have "the" before them. Since YHWH is a name, there is not a ready way to say "a day of the Lord/YHWH." They are all "the Day of the Lord."

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Both Joel and Acts are quoted above and one verse uses 'The great and terrible day,' and the other verse uses 'that great and notable day.' 

Most of the translations where 'that' day is used in the KJV have been translated into 'the' day...

On the other hand, in Jeremiah 46:10 the KJV has it translated  'the day of the Lord' some of the other translations have it translated 'that day.'  

But regardless the context itself shows us what day is being referred to. No one that would read Joel or Acts would think the day of the Lord  he was talking about was one that had taken place some 600 years before but one that must be preceded by the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood, which of course did not take place in 610 BC. 

However the question I was asking you was about the day Paul spoke of 2 Thess. 2 when he said 'THAT DAY (in which both the rapture and the second coming would take place) would not come until there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed...

So likewise with Acts and Joel, the sun had to be darkened, the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord would come, we have Paul saying there has to be a falling away and the man of sin has to be revealed before that day comes.

So Paul and Peter and Joel are all speaking of specific events that must come to pass before that day of the Lord comes..Paul narrows it down to a specific day when he first starts out by saying, 'We beseech you by the coming of our Lord (Second Coming) and our gathering together (rapture / resurrection) unto him...' He then goes on to say that 'THAT DAY in which these events will occur WILL NOT COME except these specific events take place. 

So what I am getting at is Jesus said all those who believe on him would be resurrected on the last day....so what does that mean? It means the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen on the last day and not before the last day...but what does that have to do with the rapture?

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first ...meaning the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture...so if the resurrection must take place before the rapture, and the resurrection of all believers does not happen until the last day, then there could be no rapture before the last day...

Joel said the sun and moon will be darkened BEFORE the day comes...so the phrase in question is in Rev. 6 when the men hid themselves in the rocks and dens of the earth when the events of the 6th seal took place...they said 'the day of his wrath Is come, and who shall be able to stand...?"

So the words 'is come' is also used when the marriage supper was about to take place...it had not actually happened but it said 'the marriage of the Lamb is come,'...also in Genesis God had said 'the end of all flesh 'is come' before me...' The flood wherein all flesh was to come to its end had not yet happened, but it still uses the phrase that it 'is come'.

They hid themselves in the rocks and dens when they saw the events of the sixth seal, however they did not actually see Jesus coming in the clouds...so the day of the Lord had not actually came yet..so when it say the day of his wrath 'is come' it is showing that it had not actually taken place yet, but was about to. 

Seeing the day of the Lord had not actually came yet, there could be no rapture /resurrection at the 6th seal, seeing Jesus specifically said he would raise all believers on the last day...not before the last day. 

Even at the opening of the 7th seal there is a time span of at least 5 months where men are tormented...so it cannot be that any rapture / resurrection would occur at the 6th seal as that would be before the last day.

[missmuffet]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:27 AM, iamlamad said:

In prewrath theory, is the coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19 the only coming—to include the rapture and Armageddon?

Or is the rapture a separate coming?

The rapture of the Church is an immient taking away of all those born again Christian to heaven before the 7 year tribulation. 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15: 50-54

Revelation 3:10

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The rapture of the Church is an immient taking away of all those born again Christian to heaven before the 7 year tribulation. 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15: 50-54

Revelation 3:10

 

Miss Muffet, I particularly said, "in prewrath theory..."

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Miss Muffet, I particularly said, "in prewrath theory..."

Ok here are my issues with prewrath.

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by missmuffet

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Ok here are my issues with prewrath.

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

 

I have written three books critiquing the prewrath theory.  You have just scratched the surface, so to speak. 

[Biblican]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I have written three books critiquing the prewrath theory.  You have just scratched the surface, so to speak. 

The tribulation does not really begin until the end of chapter fourteen.  In chapter eleven we see the two witnesses who are identified as "candlesticks" in verse four which means they have to be representing churches. There is no other application for the word in Revelation. Most likely they represent the spiritual conditions of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the uncompromised remnant. They are called up just before the last trumpet sounds. Trumpets in scripture are used to announce religious gatherings or war. The context suggests war. So the "warning period of the trumpets" ends with a rapture and the tribulation begins. If you look at the two groups in chapter seven, the 144 and the church that comes out of great tribulation, pick that chapter up in your mind and set it down over chapters fourteen and fifteen, you see the same two groups, only the 144 are safely in heaven before the wrath is poured out at the end of that chapter. The remainder of the church that goes through the tribulation is seen in chapter fifteen. The Philadelphians are promised to be "kept" and I believe that are the 144. They are not just Jews as Manasseh replaces Dan, which shows us the tribes are symbolic. That's how I see it anyway. Very few Christians I believe are in the Phildelphian category. That's why Jesus told us to pray that we are worthy to escape.