Revelation 10

[truth7t7]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom,  truth7t7.

I thought we weren't going to have a lengthy discussion? LOL.

I DO think this is after the last-day resurrection. The word translated "hell," in Luke 16:23, is "hadees," spelled alpha (with rough breathing)-delta-eta-sigma, and pronounced "hah-DACE." The word means the "unseen." Don't be misled by the Greek mythology that uses this word for the "Underworld" ruled by the Greek god Hades! I am quite confident that is NOT what Yeshua` meant! He was using the word as we would use the word, the "unknown." I believe that is a true account and a PROPHECY, not a "parable." He never said it was a "parable."

Im fully aware of your position, and your rediscovery for the English word "Hell"

The translation was well within the capabilities of the 60 christian scholars on the KJV committee, I think your teaching takes a back seat at this point

We Disagree

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited January 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[Alive]

15 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Its my opinion you dont answer off topic questions because you dont want the forum to know your true beliefs

1.) Do you believe (The Beast) of Revelation 13 is a future literal human man, please explain?

2.) Do you believe Jesus will return in the heavens and all eyes will see him? 

Two simple questions, let the forum openly see your belief, waiting?

Please refrain from the personal jabs and debate the subject only.

Honor your agreement to abide by the TOS.

please review this.

 

[WilliamL]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:21 PM, truth7t7 said:

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

You are making the presumption that "the protos/first resurrection" means first in time. But this is demonstrably false. Jesus' resurrection was the first in time, not that which comes when the Church is resurrected.

Therefore, the meaning of protos must be understood in its other meaning, first in preeminence. All who are resurrected unto life are in this category: Christ, those who were resurrected and ascended shortly after His resurrection, then those of the Church at the Rapture of the Church, then the 2 Witnesses, and finally those who will be beheaded for their faith by the Beast kingdom. All of these are of the protos/preeminent resurrection, though they were and will be raised at different times.

Not that I expect you to accept any of this, far from it. But others need to understand this.

[truth7t7]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You are making the presumption that "the protos/first resurrection" means first in time. But this is demonstrably false. Jesus' resurrection was the first in time, not that which comes when the Church is resurrected.

Therefore, the meaning of protos must be understood in its other meaning, first in preeminence. All who are resurrected unto life are in this category: Christ, those who were resurrected and ascended shortly after His resurrection, then those of the Church at the Rapture of the Church, then the 2 Witnesses, and finally those who will be beheaded for their faith by the Beast kingdom. All of these are of the protos/preeminent resurrection, though they were and will be raised at different times.

Not that I expect you to accept any of this, far from it. But others need to understand this.

There is one time of future resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place on the last day at the second coming of Jesus Christ, John 5:28-29, John 6:39-40, John 12:48, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

This event takes place in the twinkling of an eye as 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 describes

"First Resurrection" is used to denote the one and only resurrection of believers as Revelation 20:4-6 describes this term used as "First Resurrection"

Edited January 27, 2022 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Help me understand that statement. Upon what scripture it the position the Church is resurrected based? Where does scripture state "...the Church is resurrected..." or "...at the resurrection of the Church..."?

Isn't the Church the whole of those individuals who have already been resurrected in Christ who will be resurrected to Christ? ...

Those of the Church will be resurrected. 

Isn't that a more accurate wording?

But, maybe I'm wrong. Can you show me which scripture that comment was based? 

Hebrews 12:22 But you will have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect...

Should I have then added "of the firstborn" to Church? Picky.

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thank you for that response and the timeliness with which it was posted. However, I don't actually read any specific mention of "resurrection of the Church" in that verse. I also question the translation being used. The Greek is worded in the past-tense and every one of the 28 English translations presented HERE translates it that way. It is a past-tense ongoing condition, not a future-only-not-yet-having-happened event. 

(The tense is perfect: completed action. The context is future; thus action completed in the future.)

Apparently you do not understand what Paul was explaining in Heb. 12:18-28. He was directly comparing the coming of the Israelites to Mount Sinai, early in the Exodus, to the coming of the "Church" to "the heavenly Jerusalem" at the Rapture. This is more clearly stated later in the passage:

Heb. 12:26 ...whose voice then [at Mt. Sinai] shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more [future] I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

These things have not yet occurred, but will at the 6th Seal's great shaking, which is followed by the Rapture. The following blog post goes into more detail about this time:

2. The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption

    Provides the Hebraic background of, and explanation for, Paul’s use of the term “the Last Trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:51; then explains its connection to Paul’s often-ignored Rapture prophecy in Hebrews 12:18-28.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

[WilliamL]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:20 PM, Josheb said:

I would ask where the rapture is mentioned in Hebrews 12, but I suspect the results will be no different than asking where the scriptures state the Church will be resurrected at a specific point in the future.

Already done. All of what Paul wrote in this passage must be taken together with his comparable teachings such as 1 Thes. 4:14-17, which speaks of this very harpazo/rapture, and Galatians 4, which states same view regarding Mount Sinai and the heavenly Jerusalem:

24 ...these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Despite what you claim -- 

On 1/27/2022 at 5:20 PM, Josheb said:

His original audience reading his letter for the first time understood they...

• have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, 

this has not yet occurred. Your claim is, in fact, ludicrous.

[truth7t7]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:20 PM, Josheb said:

where the scriptures state the Church will be resurrected at a specific point in the future. Thank you for the time and effort. Moving on now. 

 

 

 

Scripture clearly teaches the "Church" will be resurrected at the future coming of Jesus Christ on the Last Day

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps. 

I asked, "Where is that stated?" and, so far, no one has provided such a statement. I have received many quotations people interpret as saying what was claimed, including those you've just quoted, but no one has provided and such statement from God's word. These discussions of prophecy and Revelation invariably boild down to arguments over interpretation and one of the reasons is because very few will read scripture as written, accept it as written, believe it as written, and post it as written. 

Including you. 

 

I'm a big fan of the resurrection of the dead. Big fan of the resurrection of the living, too . Not a big fan of folks who read into the simplest of questions and thereby refuse to answer what was asked, choosing instead to assert their interpretive views over what is plainly stated (or what is not stated). A Boolean search of scripture shows there is no statement about "the resurrection of the Church" in scripture. 

 

You did not actually post a single verse that states the church is resurrected on the last day. The original claim wasn't even yours, but you've seen fit to jump into the conversation and do the very same thing that caused the question in the first place: post interpretations of scripture and not scripture plainly stated. When I ask these kind of questions and the other poster says, "Well, Josh, those specific words aren't used anywhere in scripture (but here's how I arrived at that phrase)," then I know I am trading posts with an honest, forthcoming, and truly scripturally-grounded poster. I also know when a poster posts an interpretive view of scripture the opposite is true. This is especially the case when an individual's interpretation is assumed to have the same standing and authority as God's word plainly read as stated. 

I also know if I can't get a poster to agree with me on what is actually stated, and what is not actually stated then the two of us are not going to get very far in a discussion. 

 

I did not ask for what scripture "teaches". I asked for what it states. Both of you have failed. You should have stayed out of it and let WilliamL fail on his own. 

Proverbs 26:17
Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him.

If you want to help out William, or if you'd like to join that digression then pay attention to the details. Start first with what is stated, and resist the urge to make claims about what is not stated. You'll set the example for the other poster by beginning with, "There isn't any such specific statement in the Bible...." and that will bring us together .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but Josh, I hate to love to follow you around the forum interfering with your conversations because I despise your preterism. Yeah, bro, I get it. But that's a you problem, not a me problem. All the more so when I don't post about it. 

The name game, let's play the name game 

All that has been given to Jesus Christ Is The "Church"

Everyone Which Seeth The Son And Believeth on Him Is The "Church"

Yes The Lord Will Raise This "Church" Up On The Last Day, And This Event Didnt Take Place In 70AD As Many Claim 

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those That Shall Be Made Alive Is "Church", This Takes Place At The Coming Of The Lord, (Then Cometh The End) On The Last Day

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited January 31, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

very few will read scripture as written, accept it as written, believe it as written, and post it as written. 

Including you. 

 

I'm a big fan of the resurrection of the dead. Big fan of the resurrection of the living, too . Not a big fan of folks who read into the simplest of questions and thereby refuse to answer what was asked, choosing instead to assert their interpretive views over what is plainly stated (or what is not stated). A Boolean search of scripture shows there is no statement about "the resurrection of the Church" in scripture. 

 

You did not actually post a single verse that states the church is resurrected on the last day. The original claim wasn't even yours, but you've seen fit to jump into the conversation and do the very same thing that caused the question in the first place: post interpretations of scripture and not scripture plainly stated. When I ask these kind of questions and the other poster says, "Well, Josh, those specific words aren't used anywhere in scripture (but here's how I arrived at that phrase)," then I know I am trading posts with an honest, forthcoming, and truly scripturally-grounded poster. I also know when a poster posts an interpretive view of scripture the opposite is true. This is especially the case when an individual's interpretation is assumed to have the same standing and authority as God's word plainly read as stated. 

I also know if I can't get a poster to agree with me on what is actually stated, and what is not actually stated then the two of us are not going to get very far in a discussion. 

 

I did not ask for what scripture "teaches". I asked for what it states. Both of you have failed. You should have stayed out of it and let WilliamL fail on his own. 

Proverbs 26:17
Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him.

If you want to help out William, or if you'd like to join that digression then pay attention to the details. Start first with what is stated, and resist the urge to make claims about what is not stated. You'll set the example for the other poster by beginning with, "There isn't any such specific statement in the Bible...." and that will bring us together .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but Josh, I hate to love to follow you around the forum interfering with your conversations because I despise your preterism. Yeah, bro, I get it. But that's a you problem, not a me problem. All the more so when I don't post about it. 

(Including You)?

You are suggesting I dont read scripture as written, your claim is false!

You previously corrected me on not using the word "You", as it's a personal reference, "Really"?

Focus on the posted subject and not the person, pot, kettle, black, 

Edited January 31, 2022 by truth7t7