He that leadeth into captivity into captivity shall they go ???

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

More Tim Lahaye (Left Behind) Sci-Fi

More "bad" box stuff. Is this your best exegesis?

 

6 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

At last! This is a very good argument. There is a possibility that the two are connected. But why did you stop?

• We are all waiting to hear when, why and how "any man" must hear.
• We are waiting to hear why, when and how the Beast "gathered" (lit. Gk.) the Two Witnesses into captivity
• We are waiting to hear how the Beast was killed when he goes directly to perdition alive
• We are waiting to hear how the Beast was killed with a sword after he killed the two witnesses
• We are waiting to hear how saints can be overcome when the Beast has power 42 months over all men but not the Two Witnesses
• We are waiting to hear how God preserves the saints when they are actually killed
• We are waiting to hear how, in Chapter 12, those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, are helped, NOT by God, but by "the earth". But this help is no help for they end in death.
• Or, the saints of Revelation 13 are ONLY OVERCOME, but the Two Witnesses are OVERCOME AND KILLED
• Or, how the martyrs of Revelation 20 were OVERCOME and KILLED but are still PRESERVED

Or maybe, just maybe, they are Two different companies of men - one OVERCOME and helped in the wilderness for 42 months, and the second untouchable for 42 months and then OVERCOME AND KILLED at the end of the 42 months.

[truth7t7]

4 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

More "bad" box stuff. Is this your best exegesis?

 

At last! This is a very good argument. There is a possibility that the two are connected. But why did you stop?

• We are all waiting to hear when, why and how "any man" must hear.
• We are waiting to hear why, when and how the Beast "gathered" (lit. Gk.) the Two Witnesses into captivity
• We are waiting to hear how the Beast was killed when he goes directly to perdition alive
• We are waiting to hear how the Beast was killed with a sword after he killed the two witnesses
• We are waiting to hear how saints can be overcome when the Beast has power 42 months over all men but not the Two Witnesses
• We are waiting to hear how God preserves the saints when they are actually killed
• We are waiting to hear how, in Chapter 12, those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, are helped, NOT by God, but by "the earth". But this help is no help for they end in death.
• Or, the saints of Revelation 13 are ONLY OVERCOME, but the Two Witnesses are OVERCOME AND KILLED
• Or, how the martyrs of Revelation 20 were OVERCOME and KILLED but are still PRESERVED

Or maybe, just maybe, they are Two different companies of men - one OVERCOME and helped in the wilderness for 42 months, and the second untouchable for 42 months and then OVERCOME AND KILLED at the end of the 42 months.

Its exactly as the scripture states, no Tim La Haye Sci-Fi needed

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Its exactly as the scripture states, no Tim La Haye Sci-Fi needed

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I made a list of points that have to be answered if that is the case. What is ominous is that you ignore them. I'll wait this one out. Let's just handle one objection to your thesis then.

If the Spirit gives a warning in Revelation 13:10 that anyone who kills a Christian will be killed, and the Beast kills the Two Witnesses, when and how is the Beast killed? The Beast comes out of the Abyss because he is one of five kings who are already dead by the time John writes Revelation 17:10-11. Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:36 tell us that a man (i) only dies once, and (ii) that after resurrection you cannot die. Then Revelation 17:11 also tells us that the Beast is not killed again, but "goes into perdition" alive (Rev.19:20).

Unless I have missed something crucial these facts make your thesis impossible. Let me briefly give yo my understanding and you can test it.

The end of the age is a harvest (Matt.13). The angels will gather the tares and the wheat. the wheat is removed to the Farmer's barn. A study of the harvest in Leviticus 23 shows that within the same one harvest, there are three gatherings; (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Not all Christians are diligent and faithful. In fact, Revelation 2 & 3 show a disastrous scene in the Churches, and 2nd Thessalonians 2 predicts apostasy. Added to this, every scripture that offers escape from the Great Tribulation to Christians is CONDITIONAL.

1. In Philippians 3 Paul says that he must attain to the PRIZE of the upward call (lit. Gk.)
2. In Luke 21:36 to escape one must be "accounted worthy"
3. In Revelation 3:10 the Overcomers miss the hour of trial BECAUSE they did something

So, it is clear then that only a FEW Christians will be ripe when the Lord calls for the harvest. 1st Thessalonians 5:9 does not GUARANTEE a Christian missing the Great Tribulation. An "appointee" can fail to reach the mark and be removed. I propose that the firstfruits among living Christians will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. They are those of Revelation 14:1-5. The bulk of living Christianity, the apostates, must pass through more heat and dryness caused by the Great Tribulation. They will be ripe and raptured just before the end of the Tribulation. These are those of Revelation 7:9-16. That is why there are "saints" on earth during the Great Tribulation. And these, who tended towards sloth before the Great Tribulation, are defeated by the Beast in Rev.13:7. They are salt that lost its flavor. They are not killed but are driven into a "wilderness" where the earth helps them (Rev.12).

The "Gleanings" are wheat that is left behind for the poor and needy - not because of sloth. I judge the gleanings to be the Two Witnesses. They are left behind to warn Israel and the Gentiles of the consequences of worshiping the Beast. They must pay the ultimate price for their dutifulness, but are greatly honored afterwards. And thus the "harvest" is complete. This thesis takes care of a pre-tribulation rapture without denying a post-tribulation rapture. It reconciles BOTH scenarios. It also does what it was meant to do - show a REWARD for diligent Christians and a trial of fire for the slothful ones - without taking away their salvation. It seems to me, after 30 years of testing it, the truth of the escape of SOME and the DEFEAT of the rest of Christianity. If it evokes fear - GOOD!
 

[truth7t7]

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I made a list of points that have to be answered if that is the case. What is ominous is that you ignore them. I'll wait this one out. Let's just handle one objection to your thesis then.

If the Spirit gives a warning in Revelation 13:10 that anyone who kills a Christian will be killed, and the Beast kills the Two Witnesses, when and how is the Beast killed? The Beast comes out of the Abyss because he is one of five kings who are already dead by the time John writes Revelation 17:10-11. Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:36 tell us that a man (i) only dies once, and (ii) that after resurrection you cannot die. Then Revelation 17:11 also tells us that the Beast is not killed again, but "goes into perdition" alive (Rev.19:20).

Unless I have missed something crucial these facts make your thesis impossible. Let me briefly give yo my understanding and you can test it.

The end of the age is a harvest (Matt.13). The angels will gather the tares and the wheat. the wheat is removed to the Farmer's barn. A study of the harvest in Leviticus 23 shows that within the same one harvest, there are three gatherings; (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Not all Christians are diligent and faithful. In fact, Revelation 2 & 3 show a disastrous scene in the Churches, and 2nd Thessalonians 2 predicts apostasy. Added to this, every scripture that offers escape from the Great Tribulation to Christians is CONDITIONAL.

1. In Philippians 3 Paul says that he must attain to the PRIZE of the upward call (lit. Gk.)
2. In Luke 21:36 to escape one must be "accounted worthy"
3. In Revelation 3:10 the Overcomers miss the hour of trial BECAUSE they did something

So, it is clear then that only a FEW Christians will be ripe when the Lord calls for the harvest. 1st Thessalonians 5:9 does not GUARANTEE a Christian missing the Great Tribulation. An "appointee" can fail to reach the mark and be removed. I propose that the firstfruits among living Christians will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. They are those of Revelation 14:1-5. The bulk of living Christianity, the apostates, must pass through more heat and dryness caused by the Great Tribulation. They will be ripe and raptured just before the end of the Tribulation. These are those of Revelation 7:9-16. That is why there are "saints" on earth during the Great Tribulation. And these, who tended towards sloth before the Great Tribulation, are defeated by the Beast in Rev.13:7. They are salt that lost its flavor. They are not killed but are driven into a "wilderness" where the earth helps them (Rev.12).

The "Gleanings" are wheat that is left behind for the poor and needy - not because of sloth. I judge the gleanings to be the Two Witnesses. They are left behind to warn Israel and the Gentiles of the consequences of worshiping the Beast. They must pay the ultimate price for their dutifulness, but are greatly honored afterwards. And thus the "harvest" is complete. This thesis takes care of a pre-tribulation rapture without denying a post-tribulation rapture. It reconciles BOTH scenarios. It also does what it was meant to do - show a REWARD for diligent Christians and a trial of fire for the slothful ones - without taking away their salvation. It seems to me, after 30 years of testing it, the truth of the escape of SOME and the DEFEAT of the rest of Christianity. If it evokes fear - GOOD!
 

A Novel sized response, that didnt disprove the fact that "The Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 as seen below

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Edited January 22, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

A Novel sized response, that didnt disprove the fact that "The Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 as seen below

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

OK. That's noted.

Go well and God bless.

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

A Novel sized response, that didnt disprove the fact that "The Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 as seen below

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13 is a continuation of 12:

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

Rev 13 continues and expounds on the above verse.  It shows the evil trio and how they will make war against the saints who are defined as those who keep the commandments of God and hold do the testimony of Jesus.  It's not a reference to the two witnesses.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Revelation 13 is a continuation of 12:

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

Rev 13 continues and expounds on the above verse.  It shows the evil trio and how they will make war against the saints who are defined as those who keep the commandments of God and hold do the testimony of Jesus.  It's not a reference to the two witnesses.

We Disagree, Both Accounts Below Are The Same Event Of Making War And Overcoming

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Edited January 22, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Amazing use of grammar. The word "and" is cumulative, copulative and SEQUENTIAL. The overcoming of the saints happened BEFORE power was given to him over the nations for 42 months. And is this not what we would expect? The saints are "salt". Salt prevents corruption. The Beast would have no power if the saints were are effective as the Two Witnesses. But they are overcome - like salt that has lost its flavor. The death of the Two Witnesses on the other hand is a victory, for we read that only after their rapture "did men give glory to the God of heaven". By their deaths the power of the Mark of the Beast is overthrown and men admit God.

[R. Hartono]

@Josheb Will people of nations around the globe accept a one world government led by antichrist ? There may come resistance in each nations to rebell against this NWO and you may organize armed patriots to try to capture your government leaders /NWO pawns supporting antichrist government, but later your rebellion will be fought back and you will end up in captivity.

@truth7t7

@AdHoc

Edited January 23, 2022 by R. Hartono

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Amazing use of gr nilammar. The word "and" is cumulative, copulative and SEQUENTIAL. The overcoming of the saints happened BEFORE power was given to him over the nations for 42 months. And is this not what we would expect? The saints are "salt". Salt prevents corruption. The Beast would have no power if the saints were are effective as the Two Witnesses. But they are overcome - like salt that has lost its flavor. The death of the Two Witnesses on the other hand is a victory, for we read that only after their rapture "did men give glory to the God of heaven". By their deaths the power of the Mark of the Beast is overthrown and men admit God.

Smiles!

The (Two Witnesses) now become salt that has lost its flavor

It's amazing how far one will go fighting the simple, clear, and "Basic" truth of Gods words seen below 

The "Saints" overcome and killed are the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11, not Christian believers as you suggest

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony, they will be overcome and killed, as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Edited January 23, 2022 by truth7t7