Revelation Chapter 13 -

[JCISGD]

That aside i noticed in a early post, where it says the beast was cast down into the bottomless pit. So im thinking how can the beast be a nation? I cant see a nation being punished as a whole.

That's a good question, actually.

Then i thought about Satan being locked up for 1000 yrs, He was, then is not, but then is again?.

I know this is probably full of holes, as i say i havnt spent much time looking at it. Thoughts and corrections valued, thanks Arthur.

Well, nothing wrong with exploring ideas.

My thought on this: the beast who was, then is not, but then again is on the scene before the Lord's return. Satan is locked up after that. By that merit, I would disagree with this interpretation, though.

thanks Nebula, between this and blindseekers posts i think i have a clearer picture. God bless.

[Celt]

But what else in the Holy Scriptures besides the "beast" can we find that today would answer to that phrase? Answer, that very thing which the beasts of Daniel persecuted - the nation of Israel. Israel "was" every since it conception in Egypt and it continued as a nation until 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and literally, the national structure of Israel. Rome was Daniel's "fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces [israel], and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it" because it did not just dominate Israel, it caused Israel to cease to exist, or as it says in Revelations, "is not." So borrowing part of Revelation 17:8, ". . . that was, and is not, and yet is" which does actually refer to the beast, we can see a parallel between the beast and the nation of Israel.

That's too sharp of a turn away from what we are shown about the idea of the beast that was, and is not, and yet is...

Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(KJV)

Rev 17:10-11

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

(KJV)

Since there's two different 'beasts' mentioned back in Rev.13, with the first being about a kingdom like those of Dan.7, and the "another beast" relating to a person, which one are those specific Rev.17 verses speaking of?

The clues...

1. that beast "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit"

2. and "go into perdition"

3. that beast is one of the "seven kings" of Rev.17:10

4. that beast is a "he" per Rev.17:11

That's about the "another beast", the entity of Rev.13:11 forward, the "dragon", the devil himself, the 'king' we are told that is the "angel of the bottomless pit" and is over the locust army of Rev.9. It's the devil that "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". Nations don't come out of the bottomless pit.

The beast in the nations sense was already explained by our Lord in Rev.17:15. Per Rev.13:1 it comes up out of the "sea", which our Lord Jesus said represents the "waters" of "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues".

The Scripture is NOT pointing to Israel as that 'beast', simply because a geographical state called Israel was, and then was not, and now is again. What confusion that shows. How can anyone key on the idea of "Israel" only in connection with land, especially when the name Israel means those who prevail with God's help and have always pointed to God's people first, wherever they were? In other words, God's Israel did not simply cease because God brought the kings of Assyria and Babylon upon Samaria and Jerusalem to end Solomon's kingdom then called Israel. Nor did Israel cease just because the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, the Temple, and the methods of Old Covenant worship.

Some need to go back and read their Old Testament, for when God gave Jacob that name of 'Israel', there was no established nation of Israel in the Holy Land, yet. And even before that during the captivity in Egypt, the children OF ISRAEL were called such BEFORE they became an established nation state specifically identified with the Holy Land! God's people were called 'Israel' even when they were coming into the promised land, when that land was still called "the land of Canaan."

Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

(KJV)

[Shiloh62]

That aside i noticed in a early post, where it says the beast was cast down into the bottomless pit. So im thinking how can the beast be a nation? I cant see a nation being punished as a whole.

That's a good question, actually.

Then i thought about Satan being locked up for 1000 yrs, He was, then is not, but then is again?.

I know this is probably full of holes, as i say i havnt spent much time looking at it. Thoughts and corrections valued, thanks Arthur.

Well, nothing wrong with exploring ideas.

My thought on this: the beast who was, then is not, but then again is on the scene before the Lord's return. Satan is locked up after that. By that merit, I would disagree with this interpretation, though.

thanks Nebula, between this and blindseekers posts i think i have a clearer picture. God bless.

Hi guys, if I might intervene here; I've heard it been said about how the beast wasand isnot,and was again might possibly be Pope John Paul II. Already he was, now is not, and if he comes back, can you imagine the following he would have? It kind of fits pretty good.Whatare your thoughts on this?

[BlindSeeker]

. . . The Scripture is NOT pointing to Israel as that 'beast', simply because a geographical state called Israel was, and then was not, and now is again . . .

That is not what I said . . .

[BlindSeeker]

That aside i noticed in a early post, where it says the beast was cast down into the bottomless pit. So im thinking how can the beast be a nation? I cant see a nation being punished as a whole.

That's a good question, actually.

Then i thought about Satan being locked up for 1000 yrs, He was, then is not, but then is again?.

I know this is probably full of holes, as i say i havnt spent much time looking at it. Thoughts and corrections valued, thanks Arthur.

Well, nothing wrong with exploring ideas.

My thought on this: the beast who was, then is not, but then again is on the scene before the Lord's return. Satan is locked up after that. By that merit, I would disagree with this interpretation, though.

thanks Nebula, between this and blindseekers posts i think i have a clearer picture. God bless.

Hi guys, if I might intervene here; I've heard it been said about how the beast was and is not,and was again might possibly be Pope John Paul II. Already he was, now is not, and if he comes back, can you imagine the following he would have? It kind of fits pretty good.What are your thoughts on this?

I honestly am persuaded otherwise and do not see any biblical reason to consider it.

[Celt]

There's no parallel with the 'beast' metaphor between Rome and Israel either. The word parallel means side by side, and would point to Israel as a 'beast' also. A parallel between Rome as the 'beast' and Israel's destruction would have meaning. But it wouldn't apply to Israel in the is, was, and yet is metaphor, for that's only meant for the beast of Revelation, not God's Israel, which really has never stopped existing! The existence of Israel is not just tied to the land, but to the existence of God's people.

If Rome becomes fully pagan again in the last days, like it was even before the founding of the Roman Church, and exherts rule over the nations like the old Roman empire did, then there would be a parallel between ancient Rome and that new Rome as 'beast' kingdoms.

[BlindSeeker]

There's no parallel with the 'beast' metaphor between Rome and Israel either.

Now I know your opinion. It always amazes me when people express theirs as fact.

The word parallel means side by side, and would point to Israel as a 'beast' also.

That is as true as saying that a bride and groom standing parallel to each other make them both men.

Parallel also means

[Massorite]

There's no parallel with the 'beast' metaphor between Rome and Israel either.

Now I know your opinion. It always amazes me when people express theirs as fact.

The word parallel means side by side, and would point to Israel as a 'beast' also.

That is as true as saying that a bride and groom standing parallel to each other make them both men.

Parallel also means

[traveller]

If I may say something here?

While some of the people have always lived in the area, and we all know that God knew that they were there and that they were His nation, man didn't. According to man's narrow vision, Israel didn't really exist as a government from the time of the destruction of the temple until The State of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948. Otherwise, why did it have to be proclaimed to make it so? Since the destruction of the temple in the year 70 until 1948 Israel was under foreign rule.

Roman rule until 313 a.d.

Byzantine 313 - 614

Arab 636-1099

Crusader 1099-1291

Mamluk 1291-1516

Ottoman 1517-1917

British 1918-48

[BlindSeeker]

Just because one can make a connection by happenstance does in any way make it realitive fact.

The