Hell

[missmuffet]

Hades is a holding or waiting place for those unbelievers. Their soul goes immediately to Hades until they are judged at the end of the 1000 year millennium. Hades has the same environment as hell but it is not the actual "hell". At the end of the 1000 year millennium Hades will give up their inhabitants and they will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment and hell then will actually be opened up for Satan and his demons and all those unbelievers.

Revelation 20: 13-15

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited February 17, 2022 by missmuffet

[Ancient]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:48 PM, Starise said:

I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time).

I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to.

 

The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. 

 

Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well.

 

Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on  biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place.

 

The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes.

 

Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in.

 

The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post.

 

God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe a good place to start is to gain understanding of the terms in the original languages first. Then learn what they mean in the Biblical cultural settings. As most of our modern day views come from medieval art. Like the Dantes 13 levels of hell picture which is totally not scriptural. The Hebrew words and Greek for that matter have nothing to do with the modern day view of hell. 

The KEY is not to rely on the English word.

Shalom

[Starise]

3 hours ago, Ancient said:

Maybe a good place to start is to gain understanding of the terms in the original languages first. Then learn what they mean in the Biblical cultural settings. As most of our modern day views come from medieval art. Like the Dantes 13 levels of hell picture which is totally not scriptural. The Hebrew words and Greek for that matter have nothing to do with the modern day view of hell. 

The KEY is not to rely on the English word.

Shalom

@Ancient I don't believe we've met here before. Welcome to the forum.

Good suggestions.

While some of the posts here touched on some of those specifics, we haven't dived deep into the actual terms in this thread. 

I  arrived at my conclusions using a process of elimination that worked for me. Mainly weeding out such terms that were not relevant and looking more intensely at the terms that were relevant. 

Using the tools you suggest, how would you interpret this text? Some say it is a parable and others say it is a literal. I am of the opinion it falls into parable territory, but unlike other parables, it seems almost real.

2 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, Father, that Thou would send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
 

This raises a few questions for me almost immediately. The rich man was in a place so hot he was begging for a drink or water, yet within shouting distance he could see Abraham and Lazarus and beg them for help. The rich man could shout and he could be heard by Abraham who apparently could also see him, yet Abraham was in another place that was maybe more like some would see heaven to be. Two opposite places with a see through divider in between. Almost as if God wanted there to be some visibility ( if this was a real place).

Another flag I have is the REASON the rich man was in hell. He had good things, he was wealthy and Lazarus was a beggar. 

We know there is no sin in having good things. Solomon was the richest man of his time. Did he go to 'hell'? Neither is being a poor man a guarantee they will enter 'heaven'....and it could be indirectly inferred that those who have a lot over here will be punished over there and visa versa.

So what is the real point of this story? It seems to be really tough on rich people and really generous to the poor.

If anything I see this as a parable about how the tables will suddenly be turned on the other side. The things that a man thinks will get him far mean nothing over there.

Thoughts?

[Hopefully]

“The worms that eat the people in hell never die. The fire there is never stopped.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:48‬ ‭ERV‬‬

“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But those who are cowards, those who refuse to believe, those who do terrible things, those who kill, those who sin sexually, those who do evil magic, those who worship idols, and those who tell lies—they will all have a place in the lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭ERV‬‬

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We all experience the first death and some will not experience the second death. Hell 

I do believe Rest In Peace is true. When we rest we are taking a break, but we are not done.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Hopefully

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

The worms that eat the people in hell never die. The fire there is never stopped.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:48‬ ‭ERV‬‬

This verse finds a partner here-

Isaiah 66:24

“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

These verses open up a whole "can of worms" .

Isaiah 66:24 along with the verbal visuals are descriptive of Gehenna, that place which was once the place errant Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch. Later on, after that place was removed it became a place of refuse for dead animals and the like. A garbage dump outside of the city. The fire there was always burning and yes, there were worms or maggots feeding on what was there. Not a particularly pleasant place to hang out. Real estate values on that side of the city were likely much lower.

It is notable this is the last verse in Isaiah and a reminder that Israel would eventually see the end of her enemies.

Several commentators in commenting on Mark 9:48 indicate that the imagery posed paints rather a picture of the suffering of the wicked and not so much a literal picture of the lake of fire.

Due to this being a WOT I will only link to biblehub commentaries HERE.

1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

“But those who are cowards, those who refuse to believe, those who do terrible things, those who kill, those who sin sexually, those who do evil magic, those who worship idols, and those who tell lies—they will all have a place in the lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭ERV‬‬

Emphasis mine.

1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

I do believe Rest In Peace is true. When we rest we are taking a break, but we are not done.

Me as well.

My reasoning, which I am willing to admit could be flawed, tells me that if we are comparing the two deaths there would necessarily need to be similarities between the two, or else why bring them up together?

The first death is physical death which is a finality. The bible tells us we won't see the second death if we are covered under the blood, some people WILL see the second death. The second finality which if compared to the first, is a once and done thing. The only difference being we had potential to be rescued from the first death through the gift of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

Those who get to the second death as lost will be much less fortunate.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

2 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;

Jesus was not in any Gentile city when he spoke these words. And they were not any relevant Gentiles listening to him.

He said this quite some time before he lifted the cup and proclaimed "this is the blood of the knew Covenant, which it will be shed for the forgiveness of the sins. 

"From now on you will celebrate the passover not in the way you were doing thus far, but in the new way, doing this in remembering of me. 

Jesus talked about a Change to come with his Sacrifice on the Cross. 

***To stay relevant in connecting in what Jesus said to the Pharisees and the Jews at that time, and the point he was demonstrating it was relevant to them only and till the time of his death on the Cross, and not beyond that. 

For the rest of the world it of interest to understand the change that took place with the Cross.

It cannot be taken to apply to the whole world, only to the descendants of Abraham and not beyond the Cross. 

Also Jesus is describing something we should not ignore and this is that Jesus is describing what happened at death to the children of Abraham. Again Jesus does not venture into the Gentile Nations, but only in the Nation of the Patriarch Abraham, the Israelites including isaac and Jacob.

Here the other children of Abraham and the son of Issac are also excluded in what Jesus is explaining to the Jews about the fate of the children of Abraham at the time of their death.

Jesus is giving two possible ways to what was happening to the children of Abraham when they died, and he included the children of Abraham till the time of the Cross. When the change took place. No to take this and apply it after the Cross. 

***Jesus said something to the Pharisees and the Jews about matters they u understood and they teach to the people and there is not an argument made by them about to what happened to them after their death as of that time.

The only thing is that the Pharisees they show themselves with their Patriarch Abraham, they show themselves being gather to their Patriarch Abraham at the time of their death, that Abraham welcome them into the place where he was, the Place God had given him as his Inheritance after death and not only for him but also for his children, and their children's children. 

This place was not in Heaven, and it was not in HADES, where the God of the dead rules. 

Jesus called the place, the Inheritance of Abraham and his children where they were gathered after their death the Bossom of Abraham OR the Paradise of Abraham. 

The people on earth they gathered around their dead bodies-I am not sure what is the medical term in their language, but that besides the point.

And they did their cultural thing. While the dead person was alive to their Lord God and was with Abraham in his Bossom...

In some place separated from the rest of the world till the Cross as the Lord God continued to be their God after their death and the God of the dead was off limits and could not touch them after their death.

He could not even dream about that, the rest of the dead of the world were his but not Abraham and his children till the Cross. 

The Pharisees agree with Jesus Christ that not all the children of Abraham will be gather to Abraham after their death, some will not, and in this narrative the Rich man was not and we are told that was because he did not listen to Moses and the Prophets...

 

Verse 22, in Luke

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:22 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ἐγένετο δὲ ἀποθανεῖν τὸν πτωχὸν καὶ ἀπενεχθῆναι αὐτὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἰς τὸν κόλπον Ἀβραάμ· ἀπέθανεν δὲ καὶ ὁ πλούσιος καὶ ἐτάφη. 

 

[Ancient]

On 2/19/2022 at 1:28 AM, Starise said:

@Ancient I don't believe we've met here before. Welcome to the forum.

Good suggestions.

While some of the posts here touched on some of those specifics, we haven't dived deep into the actual terms in this thread. 

I  arrived at my conclusions using a process of elimination that worked for me. Mainly weeding out such terms that were not relevant and looking more intensely at the terms that were relevant. 

Using the tools you suggest, how would you interpret this text? Some say it is a parable and others say it is a literal. I am of the opinion it falls into parable territory, but unlike other parables, it seems almost real.

2 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, Father, that Thou would send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
 

This raises a few questions for me almost immediately. The rich man was in a place so hot he was begging for a drink or water, yet within shouting distance he could see Abraham and Lazarus and beg them for help. The rich man could shout and he could be heard by Abraham who apparently could also see him, yet Abraham was in another place that was maybe more like some would see heaven to be. Two opposite places with a see through divider in between. Almost as if God wanted there to be some visibility ( if this was a real place).

Another flag I have is the REASON the rich man was in hell. He had good things, he was wealthy and Lazarus was a beggar. 

We know there is no sin in having good things. Solomon was the richest man of his time. Did he go to 'hell'? Neither is being a poor man a guarantee they will enter 'heaven'....and it could be indirectly inferred that those who have a lot over here will be punished over there and visa versa.

So what is the real point of this story? It seems to be really tough on rich people and really generous to the poor.

If anything I see this as a parable about how the tables will suddenly be turned on the other side. The things that a man thinks will get him far mean nothing over there.

Thoughts?

I like the way you are thinking let me get back to you

Shalom

[Starise]

On 2/18/2022 at 1:28 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus was not in any Gentile city when he spoke these words. And they were not any relevant Gentiles listening to him.

He said this quite some time before he lifted the cup and proclaimed "this is the blood of the knew Covenant, which it will be shed for the forgiveness of the sins. 

"From now on you will celebrate the passover not in the way you were doing thus far, but in the new way, doing this in remembering of me. 

Jesus talked about a Change to come with his Sacrifice on the Cross. 

***To stay relevant in connecting in what Jesus said to the Pharisees and the Jews at that time, and the point he was demonstrating it was relevant to them only and till the time of his death on the Cross, and not beyond that. 

For the rest of the world it of interest to understand the change that took place with the Cross.

It cannot be taken to apply to the whole world, only to the descendants of Abraham and not beyond the Cross. 

Also Jesus is describing something we should not ignore and this is that Jesus is describing what happened at death to the children of Abraham. Again Jesus does not venture into the Gentile Nations, but only in the Nation of the Patriarch Abraham, the Israelites including isaac and Jacob.

Here the other children of Abraham and the son of Issac are also excluded in what Jesus is explaining to the Jews about the fate of the children of Abraham at the time of their death.

Jesus is giving two possible ways to what was happening to the children of Abraham when they died, and he included the children of Abraham till the time of the Cross. When the change took place. No to take this and apply it after the Cross. 

***Jesus said something to the Pharisees and the Jews about matters they u understood and they teach to the people and there is not an argument made by them about to what happened to them after their death as of that time.

The only thing is that the Pharisees they show themselves with their Patriarch Abraham, they show themselves being gather to their Patriarch Abraham at the time of their death, that Abraham welcome them into the place where he was, the Place God had given him as his Inheritance after death and not only for him but also for his children, and their children's children. 

This place was not in Heaven, and it was not in HADES, where the God of the dead rules. 

Jesus called the place, the Inheritance of Abraham and his children where they were gathered after their death the Bossom of Abraham OR the Paradise of Abraham. 

The people on earth they gathered around their dead bodies-I am not sure what is the medical term in their language, but that besides the point.

And they did their cultural thing. While the dead person was alive to their Lord God and was with Abraham in his Bossom...

In some place separated from the rest of the world till the Cross as the Lord God continued to be their God after their death and the God of the dead was off limits and could not touch them after their death.

He could not even dream about that, the rest of the dead of the world were his but not Abraham and his children till the Cross. 

The Pharisees agree with Jesus Christ that not all the children of Abraham will be gather to Abraham after their death, some will not, and in this narrative the Rich man was not and we are told that was because he did not listen to Moses and the Prophets...

 

Verse 22, in Luke

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:22 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ἐγένετο δὲ ἀποθανεῖν τὸν πτωχὸν καὶ ἀπενεχθῆναι αὐτὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἰς τὸν κόλπον Ἀβραάμ· ἀπέθανεν δὲ καὶ ὁ πλούσιος καὶ ἐτάφη. 

 

@Your closest friendnt

I think I see where you are getting your views from in seeing a division at the Death and resurrection of Christ that makes what happened BEFORE and what happened AFTER two different things. 

To be fair those such as Abraham were indeed promised many blessings to come through them in the future. Abraham believed the words of Yahweh and they were counted to him for righteousness. The scriptures testify to this. God knew he would play along with His plans or He would not have chosen him. Abraham totally submitted to his God who proved to be faithful beyond measure. Similar could be said for all of those who were B.C. and were led of the Lord. People such as Noah and others. 

Today we need the exact same kind of faith because no one here has beheld the actual death and resurrection of Christ. We believe in what HAPPENED while they believed in what WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. Same degree of faith with the same results.

Attempting to take this further into where the soul ends up after death assumes there was a real place of the dead called Hades. This is also clearly a Greek Hellenistic teaching from pagan religions and actually before going back into Egypt and ancient Babylon before that, maybe as far back as ancient Sumeria. The earliest recorded culture on earth apart from biblical accounts. 

Can you describe the "Bosom of Abraham" ? 

When trying to literalize that passage of scripture think again about the specifics.

-A place where the Lord is allowing direct views from side to side

-A place where communications is apparently allowed.

Even if we say that this place has been abolished at the cross, do you really believe such a literal place existed? What purpose was there in having a communication link between people who will never be able to in any way, shape or form cohabit or carry out another's wish. The only reason I can think of would be torture from a truly cruel tormentor. Not only will you be burning , but we want you to see those on the other side living it up. 

[Alive]

Let me ask a question that may shed some light on this--Lord willing.

How is it that we who were born 2000 years after the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension, are/were included in those 'historical events' as scripture teaches us?

Why then, is it difficult to understand that those who were born and lived 2000 years before the 'Cross, Resurrection and Ascension' not also included in those 'historical' events?

We died in Him, were raised with him and reside In Him...this is what scripture teaches us.

Something to ponder.

Christ and His work is ever present.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

Let me ask a question that may shed some light on this--Lord willing.

How is it that we who were born 2000 years after the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension, are/were included in those 'historical events' as scripture teaches us?

Why then, is it difficult to understand that those who were born and lived 2000 years before the 'Cross, Resurrection and Ascension' not also included in those 'historical' events?

We died in Him, were raised with him and reside In Him...this is what scripture teaches us.

Something to ponder.

Christ and His work is ever present.

 

There is a lot that you have left out and I am not judging because you know about them but are not taken into consideration.

The events of the Cross of Jesus Christ happened for many reasons and the Paramount reason was the reason Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and everything that followed. 

It all depended on Jesus the Christ to be, no one else could be the Christ but only Jesus, His name is JESUS. 

He had the LIFE in him, the same LIFE as the HEAVENLY FATHER.  

No Man was ever born with the LIFE of THE HEAVENLY FATHER but JESUS, and because of JESUS Obedience everything happened, without JESUS obedience nothing will happen that was happen with his death on the Cross.

I must drink this cup, if I do not nothing will happen ", JESUS drunk this Cup in full obedience to the Heavenly Father.