Hell

[Alive]

I suggest that we all refrain from using terms like false doctrine and heresy in connection to eschatology when such does not challenge essential doctrine.

We have scripture to bring to bear in debating positions. Its enough.

[Hobie_]

On 2/25/2022 at 3:26 PM, Josheb said:

Let me posit a point of clarification and then ask you a question. 

"us"? Don't you mean, "them"? 

I, for one, am not planning on being with you guys in the "thick blackness and smoking fire" alongside the devils and demons. My inheritance is entirely different .
 

According to Rev. 20 death is thrown into the fiery lake. This "fiery lake" is "the second death." In other words, death dies. Death suffers the second death. Paul told the Corinthians death is the last of the enemies to be defeated (1 Cor. 15:26). 

So here's my question: Given the scripture report, do you believe there will be death in eternity? Do you believe death dies or does death continue to live and exist in eternity after having been defeated and suffering the second death? Or, to put in in other words: Are you going to be living in an eternity where death still exists? 

 

I may have another question for you once I've read your answer. thx

Why would there be any death if there is no sin, think about it..

[Hobie_]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:23 AM, Josheb said:

I have thought about it. Now you think about it. If death is gone, completely absent, eradicated so it no longer exists, then so too is everything thrown into the fiery lake with death. Otherwise, death persists in eternity. Can't be had both ways. 

And again I emphasize the "us" versus "them." I'm not planning on being tossed into the fiery lake. Hope you don't hold such plans, either . 

Was there any death before sin, of course not. So it will be after the Lake of Fire when sin and sinners are no more...

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

If a cow fell off of a 5,000 foot cliff in the pre-Genesis 3:6 Eden, would it have survived the fall?

Okay, this brought me out of lurking. If it were possible to give a "laughing" and "well said!" reaction to that post, I would. Love it. 

Right then, back to lurking I go.  

[grahampaul]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Wait for it , because I'll bet it's not obvious to some  and a few will balk at it . 

 

 

 

.

well dont leave me hangin, prey continue.

[Ani Tefillah]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I'm waiting on an answer: If a cow fell off of a 5,000 foot cliff in the pre-Genesis 3:6 Eden, would it have survived the fall?

I believe it would have "survived the fall", but rather hadn't fallen in the first place. 😊 

[Ani Tefillah]

28 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I'll assume the emoticon is an indication of light-hearted jest but go ahead and ask a few more questions for those considering the matter further.

Upon what basis is it thought the laws of physics were different in Eden such that an object, in this case a cow, falling 5,000 feet striking at terminal velocity (approximately 121 mph/195 km/hr) a stationary object as large as this planet would survive? Or that the cow would not fall if it stepped off a cliff.

According to Genesis 1, God gave to Adam and Eve all the plants of the garden for food. What happened to a fruit or a vegetable when it was plucked from its tree or plant? Did it stay alive removed from its ordinary source of life (the tree or plant)? If it was eaten, did it survive mastication? 

What happened to a seed that was planted to grow a crop in Eden? Were there seasons in Eden, or did crops perpetually produce a harvest?

I really don't know, but I assume that before they ate of the forbidden tree, Eden was perfect, as Heaven (Paradise) is, and that they, the animals, plants etc were perfect in every way? Therefore no humans or animals could die? 

[Marathoner]

Once you surface out of lurk in a given topic, the chance of that happening again is exponentially increased. 

I know to whom @Josheb's outstanding question was posed, but there's no harm in providing an answer. Those who disagree are going to disagree regardless of my answer, so my contribution won't affect the belated outcome.  

Josh: Would the proverbial Edenic cow survive the fall?

Marathoner: Of course not. 

We permit scripture to explain scripture, yes? Yes! There is no indication in scripture, explicitly stated nor contextually inferred, that the natural laws of God's creation were fundamentally different in Eden than what's extant in His cosmos today. The notion that the laws of physics were somehow different prior to sin entering the world through Adam is an extra-biblical belief. 

One does not arrive at such a notion through the reading of scripture. On the contrary: plants yielded seeds (Genesis 1:11) --- and plants and fruits were food not only to Adam but to animals as well (Genesis 1:29-30) --- and by the words of the Lord Himself, we know what happens to a seed. What happens to a seed?

"Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24 NASB)

A seed dies, my friend. Therefore, death was present in the cosmos (creation) of the Lord God before sin entered the world through Adam. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Marathoner

[Starise]

This doesn't directly apply here, and I've mentioned it before. One thought I have had about creation as it existed before the fall that has caused me to ponder, probably has a very obvious conclusion which I think @Josheb took a few steps closer to a conclusion, is this:

Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply on the earth. This statement was made BEFORE that fall. The earth did not change in size that we know of either before or after the fall. IOW it's that same land mass, the same real estate.

"If" people never died in the world, men would have eventually overtaken the planet to the point that there would be too many people here. Uncle Charlie could be 5000 years old and he still looks 30. 

So what do we conclude from this? 

Creation is cyclic. The 30 year old looking at the old man and thinking he is old will one day BE that old man. What we call death figured into the plan.

For this we need further defining. Josheb has gone a long way towards pinning it down.

No I don't think most will accept it because people want simple solutions to sometimes complex issues.

[Marathoner]

I don't mind throwing a wrench into the works. Since Death is part of this topic (this is the last enemy to be destroyed in the lake of fire), let's look at the Lord's commandment to Adam so we might understand that there is more than one meaning associated with death afloat in the scriptures. 

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2:16-17 NASB)

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17 KJV)

We know what happened, my friends. Adam disobeyed the Lord and he did indeed die, but the death he suffered on the day of his disobedience was not the end of his flesh and blood. Adam was dead in his trespasses. Cast out of the garden, cut off from the Lord, and cursed to suffer and toil upon the earth.