The Flood Story Revisited

[Starise]

I have been lately thinking about something just under the surface and it has finally come to the top so I thought I would throw it out there for the forum to comment on.

This has to do with the original flood story we most often hear. That men became exceedingly sinful to the point that God decided to wipe most men, except for Noah and his family off the face of the earth. The narrative I most commonly heard growing up only focused on men, sin and God's judgement.

There is another narrative being passed around tacked onto the original that adds additional reasons for the flood. Some of these reasons are often said to over arch the original reasons as the main reasons for the flood. Mainly that fallen angels had polluted the human genetic pool and human kind to the point of destroying the earth.

The concern I have here is that this narrative takes us away from the sin of men being the main reason for the flood. According to supporters of this view, the REAL reason for the flood was genetic manipulation resulting in oddities such a giants. Entire races of them on earth at one time.

I don't doubt we had giants both before and after the flood. No study of the word or history comes to any other conclusion. I see some of the other thoughts on it as deductions that have the potential to water down the simple message that God said " Enough is enough" and decided to act on it.

If we say it was more the fallen angels polluting humankind than men's sin, this seems a very lop sided view and could easily dismiss the evil of men. I don't think we can dismiss what is so clearly stated in scripture. Clearly the flood was intended to wipe out men. Not just giants and freaks of nature made by fallen angels, and since giants were also a thing AFTER the flood, the measures taken were not very effective were they?

So do you see the giants and creations of fallen angels as a legitimate side interest of our creator in having the flood happen or do you see it as a main interest? If so, to what extent and why?

[teddyv]

The Genesis narrative itself makes no claim that the Flood was intended to wipe out anything but the sinfulness of men.

[Riverwalker]

I really try not to reach beyond the word that God has given us, whether Old Testament , End times or anything else

Genesis 6:  6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

God specifically names MAN...so gotta go with that

Edited January 24, 2022 by Riverwalker

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I have been lately thinking about something just under the surface and it has finally come to the top so I thought I would throw it out there for the forum to comment on.

This has to do with the original flood story we most often hear. That men became exceedingly sinful to the point that God decided to wipe most men, except for Noah and his family off the face of the earth. The narrative I most commonly heard growing up only focused on men, sin and God's judgement.

There is another narrative being passed around tacked onto the original that adds additional reasons for the flood. Some of these reasons are often said to over arch the original reasons as the main reasons for the flood. Mainly that fallen angels had polluted the human genetic pool and human kind to the point of destroying the earth.

The concern I have here is that this narrative takes us away from the sin of men being the main reason for the flood. According to supporters of this view, the REAL reason for the flood was genetic manipulation resulting in oddities such a giants. Entire races of them on earth at one time.

I don't doubt we had giants both before and after the flood. No study of the word or history comes to any other conclusion. I see some of the other thoughts on it as deductions that have the potential to water down the simple message that God said " Enough is enough" and decided to act on it.

If we say it was more the fallen angels polluting humankind than men's sin, this seems a very lop sided view and could easily dismiss the evil of men. I don't think we can dismiss what is so clearly stated in scripture. Clearly the flood was intended to wipe out men. Not just giants and freaks of nature made by fallen angels, and since giants were also a thing AFTER the flood, the measures taken were not very effective were they?

So do you see the giants and creations of fallen angels as a legitimate side interest of our creator in having the flood happen or do you see it as a main interest? If so, to what extent and why?

I understand that the "generation" of men is most critical. If our Lord Jesus was to be fully qualified to die for men, he had to be 100% Man. Salvation and ultimate victory over sin, death and Satan's rule is stated in Genesis 3:15;

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The "seed" must not be tampered with. And if you look at Satan's tactics you can see a powerful multifaceted attack. He uses:

1. Violence. If he can stir up men to kill each other he advances in annulling God's plan
2. War. If he can get men to kill lots of men he prospers
3. Mixing man with angels, sodomy and bestiality are effective ways to tamper with, or annul the seed

This all stems from God's Law of "Kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12. And this what happened by Adam eating falsely. His seed was irreparably altered. One sees the size of the tragedy in Genesis 5:1-3. Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. But when he produces Seth after the fall, it reads that Adam, who should have produced the same "kind", produced a man in his "OWN image and OWN likeness.

Thus, the reason given for Noah's salvation is based on three attributes;

1. He was, "... a preacher of righteousness, ... " (2 Pe 2:5).
2. He was a just man (Gen.6:9)
3. He was found to have his "generations" perfect (Gen.6:9)
4. He "walked with God"

That is, who "generated" him had to be "perfect" and then who he "generated" had to be perfect. This is confirmed by admitting his "generations" into the divine record in verse 10. "And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

Perhaps this matter can be seen in God's seeming ruthlessness in the Good Land. There he often ordered every man, woman, child and animal of the Canaanites to be slaughtered. The reason for this is that the Canaanites where involved in mating with angels (for there were again giants in the Land), sodomy and bestiality. God, like a gardener, does not cut weeds down. He uproots and destroys them all, for their seed will just spring up again. So it was in the flood. God wiped out any "hybrid" as well as judging the earth for sins.

Again we see the Law of "Kinds" operate in Jesus' incarnation. According to Romans 5, sin and death came by "ONE MAN" and then passed on to all men. So our Lord Jesus, to avoid having Adam's "sin" (singular), must NOT come from Adam's seed (Lk.1:35). Thus, our Lord's "generation" is traced to Adam in Luke's gospel, and in the genealogy it is always recorded "... who was the son of ...". This genealogy is not to show that Jesus was of the line of Adam, but because the first woman came out of Adam BEFORE the fall, and Jesus is "Seed of the woman", he can be traced to Adam without the sin-nature. This Law of "kinds" is so fixed that your salvation  and your rebirth stands on it.

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (1 Pe 1:23)

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by AdHoc
Format

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Genesis 6:1-4 The fallen angels mate with women and those children become giants "men of renown"

Genesis 6:5-7 And then God saw that the wickedness of man was great and decided to destroy them.

 

So definitely the fallen angels had something to do with it.
 Giants and demonic offspring were destroyed in the flood,
and the slaying of giants and demonic offspring continued into David and the Israelite's time.

But just because the fallen angles may have taught bad things,
men choosing to follow them does not make the men less innocent,
they still are acting out of choice.

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, teddyv said:

The Genesis narrative itself makes no claim that the Flood was intended to wipe out anything but the sinfulness of men.

So, everything else with the breath of life was just unfortunate, a mistake, a byproduct?

[Alive]

I was not there, so I do not know….but I have a question.

If fallen angels did not mingle and produce offspring…where did the giants come from?

Why did God want them slain?

[DeighAnn]

WHAT made NOAH different?  
Seems to me there is a reason you are asking for something more. (LOVE THOSE DAYS)  God calls us in His time,  not ours SO watch out for those who haven't received it yet, they get mad or something, so the mocking starts....anyway

What 'unusual' things happened?  Well, one thing Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him. What did Enoch prophecy about?  Notice when God speaks of 'angels' are there some distinct warnings about how men will approach the subject.   Just make sure you are taking 'notes' and don't get offended.    

BUT the entire answer really lies in one or two words.
 

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

If it were just sons and daughters of men, why the DISTINCTION?  Because the instruction book could only be so big and every single detail can't be laid out.  That is why we are to read it precept on precept verse by ...so that GOD can speak to us as we are supposed to be spoken to and our minds opened up as He wants them to be...another subject. 

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

People gonna jump in and say 'man' but having read the whole book we know that angels are referred to as men and men are  referred to as angels AND so we must DISCERN from all that is written.  These are things the Holy Spirit leads us in that men who don't understand come against ESPECIALLY those who are always learning (they think they know everything) but never coming to knowledge.  

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at His heart.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

What would make NOAH perfect IN HIS GENERATIONS and everyone else NOT if it only had to do with 'men'?  

8549. tamim 
Strong's Concordance
tamim: complete, sound
Original Word: תָּמִים
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: tamim
Phonetic Spelling: (taw-meem')
Definition: complete, sound

blameless (22), blamelessly (1), complete (1), entire (1), full (1), intact (1), integrity (4), perfect (5), sincerity (1), unblemished (2), uprightly (1), who is perfect (1), whole (2), without blemish (12), without defect (36).

without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely ity, sound, without spot, undefiled,
From tamam; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth -- without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole

No giants in Noahs blood line.  

We have end time prophecy that speaks of Satan and his angels being kicked to earth so apparently ANGELS are very very much like us.  We have possibly 'entertained' angels unawares, we have 'bretheren' angels in heaven speaking with John in Rev.  We eat angels food.  We will be just like them.  Another subject

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


If not the sins taking place before the flood, 
then to WHAT ANGELS would GOD be speaking of? 
Which angels were cast down to hell?  When? for WHAT?  
 

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

LIKE IN THE DAYS OF NOAH there will be 'fallen angels, strange flesh'.  Why does a woman need to cover her head?  
 

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  (that reads 'angels' in another place, weird?)

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


The synagogue of Satan is something we never really speak of and there is a reason.  But from the beginning Satan has been on a mission to halt the Son of God/Son of Man from being born, with Adam and Eve, with the fallen angels, in the promised land, infiltrating the scribes of the temple and soon doing the work of the priests etc.  It is still working today.  That is why the crucifixion of Christ and the gentiles being brought in was kept secret

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

 

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, Starise said:

I have been lately thinking about something just under the surface and it has finally come to the top so I thought I would throw it out there for the forum to comment on.

This has to do with the original flood story we most often hear. That men became exceedingly sinful to the point that God decided to wipe most men, except for Noah and his family off the face of the earth. The narrative I most commonly heard growing up only focused on men, sin and God's judgement.

There is another narrative being passed around tacked onto the original that adds additional reasons for the flood. Some of these reasons are often said to over arch the original reasons as the main reasons for the flood. Mainly that fallen angels had polluted the human genetic pool and human kind to the point of destroying the earth.

The concern I have here is that this narrative takes us away from the sin of men being the main reason for the flood. According to supporters of this view, the REAL reason for the flood was genetic manipulation resulting in oddities such a giants. Entire races of them on earth at one time.

I don't doubt we had giants both before and after the flood. No study of the word or history comes to any other conclusion. I see some of the other thoughts on it as deductions that have the potential to water down the simple message that God said " Enough is enough" and decided to act on it.

If we say it was more the fallen angels polluting humankind than men's sin, this seems a very lop sided view and could easily dismiss the evil of men. I don't think we can dismiss what is so clearly stated in scripture. Clearly the flood was intended to wipe out men. Not just giants and freaks of nature made by fallen angels, and since giants were also a thing AFTER the flood, the measures taken were not very effective were they?

So do you see the giants and creations of fallen angels as a legitimate side interest of our creator in having the flood happen or do you see it as a main interest? If so, to what extent and why?

Interesting topic, and I’m not out to change anyone’s view, merely summarizing my studies on your post. Be prepared, this is lengthy and long winded, but needed to express my reasoning.

It is evident from archaeology, scripture, and mythology, these giants were not a product of some sort of pituitary malfunction or other disease, such as Robert Wadlow (the Alton, IL. Giant). All biblical examples (Goliath, his brothers, Og, etc.) indicate they had no longevity or health problems, they had supernatural size and strength.

Is Mesopotamian literature, Greek mythology, and ancient Hebrew literature all science fiction and wife’s tales, or is there some truth buried in there too? Every ancient culture has Titian and global flood stories to this day.

Can we say that just shortly after the flood, the same global conditions were occurring again with Nimrod? Or, plenty of other examples in Hebrew history when the king leads the nation into idolatry and fornication, with all the other gentile nations evil to the core?

And also, after that… During the 400-year Hebrew exodus in Egypt absent from the land. These giant tribes (Rephaim, Zuzim, Horim, Avim, and Anakim) could have established themselves anywhere on the globe. They didn’t, they chose to strategically position themselves to prevent the return of the Hebrews, the allotment God is going to grant them. Was that a coincidence?

In the ten plagues of Egypt, the Hebrews, their cattle, livestock, their lives, and goods were protected from the devastation the Pharoah received.

In the global deluge, the Lord chose to start all over again, getting rid of everything with “the breath of life”; man, air breathing animals, and plants. Apparently, not only was man’s heart continually evil, but the plants and animals had become corrupted also, how?

As it was in the days of Noe, so shall… We can look at a number of periods in history after the flood, that would fit this description we are given as business as usual and unaware. What makes this period before the flood so unique and different than other periods of history? If my statements and thoughts are historically and scripturally accurate, why did Jesus have to go so far back in history to cite this comparison and example?

Thinking scientifically, these genetic mutations and genealogy could not have been a freak of nature, and passed down through DNA. It is interesting to observe, in the Bible or any other ancient literature, I’ve never ran across an instance of female giants or clans?

I do not subscribe to the Cain-Seth view of Genesis 6:1-4, bêne ʼĕlôhîym is never used of men in the Bible. Elohiym basically means spirit, non-human flesh. The offspring of this union, produced men of renown (famous, known, standing apart).

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Satan knows God’s word better than anyone. We see where Satan tried to prevent the coming of the Messiah on numerous occasions by genocide of the Hebrew-Jewish race. I suspect the introduction of these part human, part spiritual hybrids, was an attempt to contaminate the bloodline of the coming Messiah.

If this hermeneutic view is accurate:

Luke 17:26 (KJV) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

We should be seeing DNA tinkering, crossing the “kind” barrier, in an effort for transhumanism. Our government has publicly admitted they are engaged in such activities. To enhance humans for super-soldiers, war, the vigor’s of outer space. They are engaged in the legalities and legal definitions of such changes coming about.

Outer space has become weaponized, and many countries including our own, have created a “space force”. Consisting of humans that need to be modified in some way to enhance their durability, senses, stamina, and performance.

In my opinion, anything less than 100% human as the Lord created them, is not eligible for Salvation. As with the hybrids created between spiritual angelic beings and human women.

I also suspect the spirits of these dead Nephilim, part celestial, could be demons, the lowest rung of the evil spiritual ladder? I see no mention of demons or demonic possession prior to the deluge.

[Starise]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that the "generation" of men is most critical. If our Lord Jesus was to be fully qualified to die for men, he had to be 100% Man. Salvation and ultimate victory over sin, death and Satan's rule is stated in Genesis 3:15;

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The "seed" must not be tampered with. And if you look at Satan's tactics you can see a powerful multifaceted attack. He uses:

1. Violence. If he can stir up men to kill each other he advances in annulling God's plan
2. War. If he can get men to kill lots of men he prospers
3. Mixing man with angels, sodomy and bestiality are effective ways to tamper with, or annul the seed

This all stems from God's Law of "Kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12. And this what happened by Adam eating falsely. His seed was irreparably altered. One sees the size of the tragedy in Genesis 5:1-3. Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. But when he produces Seth after the fall, it reads that Adam, who should have produced the same "kind", produced a man in his "OWN image and OWN likeness.

Thus, the reason given for Noah's salvation is based on three attributes;

1. He was, "... a preacher of righteousness, ... " (2 Pe 2:5).
2. He was a just man (Gen.6:9)
3. He was found to have his "generations" perfect (Gen.6:9)
4. He "walked with God"

That is, who "generated" him had to be "perfect" and then who he "generated" had to be perfect. This is confirmed by admitting his "generations" into the divine record in verse 10. "And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

Perhaps this matter can be seen in God's seeming ruthlessness in the Good Land. There he often ordered every man, woman, child and animal of the Canaanites to be slaughtered. The reason for this is that the Canaanites where involved in mating with angels (for there were again giants in the Land), sodomy and bestiality. God, like a gardener, does not cut weeds down. He uproots and destroys them all, for their seed will just spring up again. So it was in the flood. God wiped out any "hybrid" as well as judging the earth for sins.

Again we see the Law of "Kinds" operate in Jesus' incarnation. According to Romans 5, sin and death came by "ONE MAN" and then passed on to all men. So our Lord Jesus, to avoid having Adam's "sin" (singular), must NOT come from Adam's seed (Lk.1:35). Thus, our Lord's "generation" is traced to Adam in Luke's gospel, and in the genealogy it is always recorded "... who was the son of ...". This genealogy is not to show that Jesus was of the line of Adam, but because the first woman came out of Adam BEFORE the fall, and Jesus is "Seed of the woman", he can be traced to Adam without the sin-nature. This Law of "kinds" is so fixed that your salvation  and your rebirth stands on it.

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (1 Pe 1:23)

 

These comments on the seed of men and the ways in which it was corrupted are often among the reasons raised for kill offs although I don't believe that's exactly the point you're making here. Thanks for the associated references for your ideas.

Some of your comments raise even more questions for me. Referring to your comments on Noah, the bible says no man is righteous. No not one. So Noah's 'righteousness' must have been somehow different. If Noah was righteous it had nothing to do with anything about him so far as I can tell.  Since Noah walked with God I can only infer he had the foreknowledge of salvation and was justified for this reason. "Good men" will be thrown into hell. As to point 3, could this simply mean his generations were aligned with God's plan? God would bring the messiah from that lineage.

No doubt, Satan would have done anything in his power to prevent the birth of Jesus as we can see in the story of Herod having all babies killed. It doesn't surprise me a bloodline corruption was on the table, even if the intended purpose wasn't fulfilled it would surely louse up men. The thing I find strangely missing from our modern bibles is any detailed or even cursory mention of these things. Genesis simply tells us men sinned and God judged, unless we want to include the small mention that "the sons of God went into the daughters of men". 

If we dare to include shreds of historical writings coming from ancient peoples on these things and some of the books not said to be included in the legitimate bible, we come up with giants who were seen and worshiped as gods, who demanded blood sacrifices and were generally cruel in their demands and leadership.Other writings coming from the American Indians tell us of a cannibalistic group of giants who attacked them and TOOK their wives. These would be the offspring of the angel/human abominations who are said to be the demons of today in spirit form. Not sure if the same sort of thing took place in regards to the progeny of these beings as similar to their angelic fathers of not. Some of the stories give these giants supernatural powers which if we accept the story to begin with, this isn't much more of a stretch. The bible speaks of " Mighty men, men of renown'. The translation almost gives these beings a superior stance among men and a mark of approval instead of calling them the abominations that they were.

So far as the bloodlines of Jesus and the seed He came from. I have questioned much about all of this. This isn't to say I doubt the Holy word. I don't. Both Adam AND Eve sinned, so it is difficult for me to say the bloodline of Jesus through her was clean, UNLESS  Yahweh had Mary impregnated with a PURE man's genes. He was a man but he was a PURE man. We can say the bloodlines of men are passed through the man, but the women this produces are also sinners in need of the blood of Christ. If we take these ideas too far they begin to look similar to Hitler with his Aryan race theories. Some un linking had to happen genetically in order for Christ to be born. He was unlike any man before or since then.

Back to the OT and how I see it tieing in. One of the frontal assaults of the other side seems to be genetic disruption. Why isn't this more clear in scripture today if it was truly such an ingrained part of the motive for a flood? God doesn't even mention giants for the most part with respect to the flood. We could read between the lines which is admittedly dangerous unless we get it right. Then we could say that YES, men were evil. One of the main reasons they were evil was genetic corruption. Men were already sinners from Adam. This is no surprise. The idea here seems to be the extent of the sins was much more intense. No good sinners but apparently there can be worse ones. 

As in the times before the flood the bible refers to these sinners as "worse and worse'. Not seeing their evil state and seeking help for it, but rather reveling in it and becoming worse. These are the days we live in now.