Who is the one "taken"?

[CaptWalker]

Was just wondering why all the pre-tribbers always point to this as the rapture, when the Greek word for "taken" is not the same as HARPAZO in 1st Thess.4:17? Actually it is not even related at all and the meaning has nothing to do with being raptured, but still many Christians either ignore that fact or just don't think it's relevant and simply go with what they have always been taught without even questioning it? 

[Who me]

1 hour ago, CaptWalker said:

Was just wondering why all the pre-tribbers always point to this as the rapture, when the Greek word for "taken" is not the same as HARPAZO in 1st Thess.4:17? Actually it is not even related at all and the meaning has nothing to do with being raptured, but still many Christians either ignore that fact or just don't think it's relevant and simply go with what they have always been taught without even questioning it? 

 

According to the greek internear for 1 thes 4:17 is reads :-

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

 

Sorry follow the link as it posts vertically when copied.

reads caught up, not taken.

 

[CaptWalker]

Maybe i said it wrong but i was referring to the one "taken" in Matthew-24 and Luke-17, and the original meaning of that word has nothing to do with being raptured or caught away, but you need a Strong's concordance or Greek lexicon to find the true meaning. And Harpazo is the same as "caught up" but it is still referring to the very LAST trump as i have always believed. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by CaptWalker

[CaptWalker]

Actually that Biblehub.com link provided would also work in finding the meanings of certain words, just type in the verse at the top.

[OneLight]

I have nothing against biblehub.com but I have used EliYah Ministries for years.  I also use Hebrew and Greek word dictionaries for a much deeper understanding.

726. harpazo har-pad'-zo from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

 

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

Maybe i said it wrong but i was referring to the one "taken" in Matthew-24 and Luke-17, and the original meaning of that word has nothing to do with being raptured or caught away, but you need a Strong's concordance or Greek lexicon to find the true meaning. And Harpazo is the same as "caught up" but it is still referring to the very LAST trump as i have always believed. 

If you are referrng to Matthew 24:40-42 this has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church it is referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[Billiards Ball]

On 2/11/2022 at 12:13 AM, CaptWalker said:

Was just wondering why all the pre-tribbers always point to this as the rapture, when the Greek word for "taken" is not the same as HARPAZO in 1st Thess.4:17? Actually it is not even related at all and the meaning has nothing to do with being raptured, but still many Christians either ignore that fact or just don't think it's relevant and simply go with what they have always been taught without even questioning it? 

1) Because "paralambano" in the "taken" passage in Matthew can mean "receive, such as an office or appointment", as in the blessed hope of a new, resurrected body in 1 Cor 15

2) Because the context of all of Matthew 24/25 is the disciples asking about end times events!

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well,  look at the context carefully, and what else is being said and you will discover that the ones taken, are taken away to their destruction, not at all the rapture.

[Selah7]

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's going to be like in the days of Noah.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Who was it that didn’t know and was taken away?  Noah and his family/God's servants?  No.  It was those who were marrying and giving in marriage.  Prior to Christ's return, things will be just like that.

(40)Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(41)Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Again, who is being taken away?  Those who KNOW NOT, those partaking in the marrying and giving in marriage.  Marriage with whom?—marriage with the fallen angels that are cast to the earth with Satan the false-christ when he comes at the 6th trump— Only this time, it will be a spiritual marriage of DECEPTION, and they will be TAKEN by Satan.

[AdHoc]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:13 AM, CaptWalker said:

Was just wondering why all the pre-tribbers always point to this as the rapture, when the Greek word for "taken" is not the same as HARPAZO in 1st Thess.4:17? Actually it is not even related at all and the meaning has nothing to do with being raptured, but still many Christians either ignore that fact or just don't think it's relevant and simply go with what they have always been taught without even questioning it? 

Herewith is the argument of the "Pre-Tribers".

The Lord was answering three questions posed in 24:3; (i) When will these things be, (ii) what will be the sign of of Christ's Coming, and (iii) what will be the sign of the end of the age? The Lord Jesus answers how these three questions apply to the those on earth. Now, from Babel to Jacob we have (1) THE Nations. From Jacob springs a (2) special Nation called Israel. From these TWO (Eph.2:15) God picks out men and women to form a (3) "new creation" called "the New Man" (2nd Cor.5:17). Thus, at the end of this age there will be three distinct peoples on earth EACH with a distinct destiny.

From the Temple in 24:1 to the gathering of an elect from "four winds", the context is everything Jewish. Even the gospel preached among all nations pertains to the Jews because they are in the diaspora - scattered among the Nations. And they will hear and refuse the gospel, and persecute the disciples of Jesus. Only Israel was scattered to the "four winds" and only Israel will be gathered back to their Land from the four winds (Jer.49:36, Ezek.37:9).

Abruptly, in verse 32, our Lord sets forth a parable. According to Matthew 13 our Lord Jesus spoke to men in parables so that ONLY the Church would understand. The parables would obscure the "mysteries of the kingdom" to all but the Church. Added to this, the section from Mathew 24:32 - 25:30 does not give "signs" except for the parable of the Fig Tree. It deals with "Servants" and "Virgins" and how their MORAL condition is. This section ends when our Lord predicts His throne set up on earth to judge "ALL Nations" (Matt.25:31-32). In this judgement the "least of the Lord's brethren" are CONTRASTED with "ALL Nations". So the section of scripture in which we discuss here is about the the Lord's Servants and Virgins to whom He speaks in parables - the believers. This is confirmed by the grammar - like "YOUR Lord" (v.42), the Goodman of verse 43 is "ye" of verse 44, "HIS Lord" in verse 45, "HIS household of" verse 45, and in verse 46 the servant who did good is "THAT servant" to whom Christ is "the Lord of that Servant" of verse 50. Neither Israel NOR the Nations are servants of the Lord. Nor are they Virgins.

So the section under discussion (24:32 - 25:30) concerns the Lord's HOUSEHOLD full of servants, the Lord's Wedding Feast which contains the INVITED guests, who are Virgins - a term given ONLY to the Church in 2nd Corinthians 11:2. And theses "servants" are given Christ's goods to manage UNTIL HE COMES and to trade with them. There can be no doubt that Matthew 24:32 to 25:30 concerns the Church.

From Matthew 24:32 onward the threat to all men is laid down. At Noah's time the whole world was in danger, but oblivious of the danger. They were exercising the normal activities of this life right up until the flood overcame them. The Greek word for "took them" in verse 39 is "airo". It means to snatch away. It is used to show what happened to our sins on the cross - "ripped away" in John 1:29. The grammar indicates that these were those not in the Ark. Then comes a warning to the "servants" of the Lord, for THEM not to be caught unawares as well. The implication of such a warning in any language is; "you are warned! Something is going to happen and don't be caught being involved with what the rest of men do.

Verse 40 introduces TWO servants. The number 2 is the number of "Witness". These "witnesses" are doing heavy work in the field and mill of the Lord, and because of the context, they are also the "Household" of "fellow-servants". They are the same on all points. The Lord comes as a thief. The picture is of a stealthy operator who comes at the hour of the circadian low - when men are at their slowest. The sentries, though they know the the thief could come, are not alert. It is 4 a.m. They are tired of testing the shadows for movement. They are thinking of food, warmth, their bed and the coming marriage. And into this slumbering situation comes the Lord - NOT as lightening, UN-announced, and He seeks that which is PRECIOUS. He "TAKES" one and LEAVES the other.

The Greek word "TAKEN" here in verses 40 - 41 is "paralambano". It means "to take with as a well-known companion". Joseph TOOK (paralambano) Mary and they escaped to Egypt (Matt.1:24). What changes does this make? (i) the one "LEFT" is still a servant" but was not reckoned as precious. The one "LEFT" will go back to the field on the morrow. The one left is a servant of a BROKEN UP HOUSEHOLD. The "witness" is broken for they are no longer TWO. The reason for being LEFT is given. They did NOT WATCH for a thief. The THIEF is come and gone with the precious goods - THE FAITHFUL SERVANT. The faithful servant is "TAKEN as a well-received companion".

But TWO is the number of WITNESS, while the number of God's people is always TWELVE. Where are the other TEN? Well... one must not go far, for TEN Virgins have been waiting for the Groom and fallen asleep. Why did they fall asleep? Because the Groom DELAYED. Why was ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT? Because the their DELAYED and men grew weary. The TWO in he field are the LIVING  Christians who LIVE at the time of "the end of the age". The TEN are the Christians who have died through the centuries. TWO and TEN makes 12 - the number of God's people.

But the question is, to WHERE are the precious goods taken? Matthew does not say, for that was not the question asked. So we have to find the parallel warning of a thief and the Household of God. And if we take the Bible in the original, and leave out Chapter and verse that was added later, we will find this in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 into 5;

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. ...
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober....
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The word "BUT" in verse 1 JOINS what went before to what comes. What went before is being caught away to the CLOUDS. And verse 8 does not speak of a "salvation" that is past tense. It speaks of being saved from a FUTURE WRATH. This is NOT a "salvation" from the Lake of Fire. It is a "salvation" in which we are caught away to the clouds and "LIVE TOGETHER with Him. On the earth is WRATH like Noah's time. There is no corner of safety. God's Wrath is upon "all the earth". Safety is only to be had in Hades under the earth, OR, IN THE CLOUDS above the earth. But Hades is for the DEAD and we will LIVE TOGETHER with Him. He is in the clouds at this time. The SERVANT who is TAKEN (paralambano - as a well-known companion) is taken to the clouds when the THIEF comes. And why is he valuable? Because he is a FAITHFUL servant while many servants were UNFAITHFUL.

1. The time of the end of the age is like that of Noah
2. General humanity were unaware of the coming trial tat would encompass ALL the earth
3. SAFETY is NOT to be found anywhere on earth
4. A Thief comes  to take what is precious - FAITHFUL SERVANTS
5. The word "takes" means "taken like a well-known companion"
6. The Thief TAKES the precious Goods to the clouds - the only place of safety for the LIVING
7. The slothful and unfaithful servant is left. He/she has little value