The Intended Audience of the Olivet Discourse

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Can you see why one needs to have a version that shows the Hebrew perspective on the text? I know this has been long, but please understand why a word-for-word translation is so much better than a thought-for-thought translation.

I, and many others disagree.    Because written Hebrew is a very sparse language, it is much better to have the concepts and basic meaning translated. Word for word can lead to serious misunderstandings. 

I hold to the fact of Jesus' prophecy about the fig tree, which represents Judah, refers to the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel in 1948.  What else? 

[Alive]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Alive.

Thank you for that information; I really appreciate it. However, I don't think I feel any better about the NEB or the REB. While I enjoy the risks that the translators took with the translation of the NEB, I'm not sensing any true guidance in the translation project as a unity. The REB backs up on the risks, but introduces its own problems: The Spirit "hovered?" The NEB was closer! How does a "WIND" "hover?"

I agree. That is why I linked it. I much prefer attempts at word for word literal rather than equivilence.

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Keras said:

I, and many others disagree.    Because written Hebrew is a very sparse language, it is much better to have the concepts and basic meaning translated. Word for word can lead to serious misunderstandings. 

I hold to the fact of Jesus' prophecy about the fig tree, which represents Judah, refers to the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel in 1948.  What else? 

Shalom, Keras.

While the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was indeed a valuable milestone, they're not there, yet. They CANNOT build the Temple until the religion of Islam is banished from Israel. Allah and YHWH are NOT the same God! There are too many differences to count, despite the fact that the peoples came from the same source, Avraham/Ibrahim/Abraham. The god Allah is NOT AT ALL the God of the Bible, YHWH! Thus, Allah is a false god, and Muhammed is a false prophet. Allah is a god demanding respect, who may be merciful. YHWH Elohiym is LOVE, who has a Son that The Father sent to die in our place and on our behalf! He gives us of His Spirit and we can cry, Abba! Father! Israel has not yet learned that Yeshua` is God's Messiah - God's CHOICE - to be their King, as His ancestor David was! That's "what else!"

As far as Hebrew is concerned, simply read it in its context! That will keep one on track. You may have to read more, but isn't that better anyway? Context will reveal what may be missed by a word-for-word translation.

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

While the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was indeed a valuable milestone, they're not there, yet. They CANNOT build the Temple

Right; the current inhabitants of the holy Land cannot build a new Temple. That is why over 20 Prophesies say the entire Middle East area will be cleared and cleansed. Jeremiah 12:14   It will be the citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, +, who will built it and live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

THE CHRISTIAN PEOPLES; from every race, tribe, nation and language.   Romans 9:24-26

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

As far as Hebrew is concerned, simply read it in its context! That will keep one on track. You may have to read more, but isn't that better anyway? Context will reveal what may be missed by a word-for-word translation.

Why make it hard? The translators know better that me of the intended meanings.  I do use Strongs and the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer quite often.

One example of where the REB translators got it correctly, is in Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pas safely through all that is coming....      Other trans say: ....to escape all that is coming.......

Which creates an anomaly with verse 35....that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.....

This has caused much error, as many now believe they can and will 'escape' the time of trial and testing to come.  Refuted by 1 Peter 4:12 and 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Edited April 28, 2022 by Keras

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Right; the current inhabitants of the holy Land cannot build a new Temple. That is why over 20 Prophesies say the entire Middle East area will be cleared and cleansed. Jeremiah 12:14   It will be the citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, +, who will built it and live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. 

THE CHRISTIAN PEOPLES; from every race, tribe, nation and language.   Romans 9:24-26

Shalom, Keras.

Good point! However, it's still possible that the Israelis will build ... something .... in the meantime. And, that will have to be cleared, as well.

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Why make it hard? The translators know better than me of the intended meanings.  I do use Strongs and the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer quite often.

But, do they, really? It is the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) who gives us the words to say, and I believe this is true about the translations, as well. We HOPE that the translators are given over to the leadership of the Spirit, but we don't KNOW that is always true during the translation process. So, we PRAY that the Holy Spirit will guide them as they read, think, and write, but after all, they ARE just human beings - men and/or women who know the original languages and catch a glimmer of what the original authors were trying to say.

1 hour ago, Keras said:

One example of where the REB translators got it correctly, is in Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pas safely through all that is coming....      Other trans say: ....to escape all that is coming.......

Which creates an anomaly with verse 35....that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.....

This has caused much error, as many now believe they can and will 'escape' the time of trial and testing to come.  Refuted by 1 Peter 4:12 and 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

I agree with you on this. I grew up with the Pretribulational Rapture Theory preached as fact. It took "many moons" for me to see it differently. What did it for me was to understand that the "tribulation" is NOT equal to "the 70th Week" of Daniel 9.

[Keras]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, it's still possible that the Israelis will build ... something .... in the meantime. And, that will have to be cleared, as well.

No, it isn't possible for the Israelis to build anything on the Temple Mount. The atheists are not interested [over 50%] and the followers of Judaism are mostly forbidden to go there for fear of stepping where the Holy of Holies was. 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

We HOPE that the translators are given over to the leadership of the Spirit,

As the example I presented shows; plus the shocking changes and additions to the KJV to suit King James and the then current Church doctrines, prove. We can trust the Bible for our Salvation and generally how we should live. But Bible prophecy is easily misinterpreted, as is evident in the plethora of theories and wild speculations about what God has planned for our future. 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What did it for me was to understand that the "tribulation" is NOT equal to "the 70th Week" of Daniel 9.

I believe the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, will happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. The second half of Daniels 70th 'week'.   But yes: the Sixth Seal 'tribulation', will happen several years before that. Proved by how the people who stood firm in their faith during the S.S. worldwide disaster, are seen by John before the GT. Revelation 7:14;

Roy; I want to say how I appreciate your comments and insights. Quite different from the reaction I get elsewhere

[abcdef]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:26 AM, Last Daze said:

Completely agree with this point.

The times of the nations (times of the Gentiles) is God's promise to Abraham being fulfilled that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  This was accomplished by preaching the gospel to all the world.  Jesus gave us this marker to know when that would be finished:

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

The Israelis captured Jerusalem in 1967 and are autonomous there.  Jerusalem is not being trampled underfoot by Gentiles therefore the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

This is important, what happens after the ToGs end and Jerusalem is restored?

 

On 4/24/2022 at 10:26 AM, Last Daze said:

  The fullness of the Gentiles, however, is yet to come in.  We are in the process of the wheat being brought to maturity before the harvest.

The fullness of the gentiles may be happening right now.

The fullness seems to be associated with the acceptance of the gospel kingdom by Israel.

The acceptance will be by individuals and not as a national event.

Israel after the flesh and Israel after the spirit, 2 groups.

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[WilliamL]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:08 PM, abcdef said:

On 4/24/2022 at 9:26 AM, Last Daze said:

  The fullness of the Gentiles, however, is yet to come in.  We are in the process of the wheat being brought to maturity before the harvest.

The fullness of the gentiles may be happening right now.

The fullness seems to be associated with the acceptance of the gospel kingdom by Israel.

`For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11:25)  

The phrase in blue is an exact quotation from, and reference to, Genesis 48:19 "...his [Ephraim's] posterity shall be(come) the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles."

Gen. 48:19 Hebrew וְזַרְעֹ יִהְיֶה מְלֹא־הַגֹּויִם…

…and his seed will be the fullness of the nations.

This patriarchal prophecy by Jacob, when he made the sign of the cross with his hands upon the heads of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh – the first instance in the Bible of a laying on of hands – has a much greater significance for our times than most Christians and Jews realize. In part, because Jacob made Joseph "the nazir/Consecrated One of his brothers" (Gen. 49:26), which consecration passed on through his sons.

Paul prophesied in Romans 11:25 that when this prophecy comes to be fulfilled, then, essentially, the End of the Christian Age will come. For God will not begin to restore Israel until that time. That time being when Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, and "every eye will see Him" (see the post above), and the Jews will mourn for Him and understand that He is their Messiah "whom they pierced."

So we should look around the world and see where the nation/s of Ephraim is/are, and the corresponding relationship of the Gentiles = nations with respect to it/them, and judge whether or not this destiny has fulfilled its course. Or is near to it.

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

`For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11:25)  

The phrase in blue is an exact quotation from, and reference to, Genesis 48:19 "...his [Ephraim's] posterity shall be(come) the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles."

Gen. 48:19 Hebrew וְזַרְעֹ יִהְיֶה מְלֹא־הַגֹּויִם…

…and his seed will be the fullness of the nations.

This patriarchal prophecy by Jacob, when he made the sign of the cross with his hands upon the heads of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh – the first instance in the Bible of a laying on of hands – has a much greater significance for our times than most Christians and Jews realize. In part, because Jacob made Joseph "the nazir/Consecrated One of his brothers" (Gen. 49:26), which consecration passed on through his sons.

Paul prophesied in Romans 11:25 that when this prophecy comes to be fulfilled, then, essentially, the End of the Christian Age will come.

For God will not begin to restore Israel until that time. That time being when Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, and "every eye will see Him" (see the post above), and the Jews will mourn for Him and understand that He is their Messiah "whom they pierced."

So we should look around the world and see where the nation/s of Ephraim is/are, and the corresponding relationship of the Gentiles = nations with respect to it/them, and judge whether or not this destiny has fulfilled its course. Or is near to it.

 

Jerusalem is restored. Israel is a nation. Many people of Israel are accepting Jesus and the spiritual kingdom of Israel.

The people of Israel are now faced with many of the same choices that their ancestors faced, that would be to accept Jesus and the spiritual kingdom of Israel or don't accept it.

It would seem logical to assume that Israel and Jerusalem would have to be restored first, before Israel would have to make a choice as a nation. As these have already taken place, we are looking for conversions.

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What should we expect to see when "all Israel" will be saved?  

Conversion on a national scale? Maybe, but I doubt it.

"All Israel" of spiritual Israel, will be saved? Yes, but not those after the flesh Israel who reject Jesus, they will not be saved. So we can expect that there will be many who will not be saved.

So this is the situation that exists right now. The restored Israel is hearing the kingdom message and they are being translated into the kingdom.

This fulfills both the requirements for the end of the times of the gentiles Lk 21:24 and the end of the fullness of the gentiles.

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It is not the end of the "Christian" era. Any people of Israel who accept Jesus enter the Kingdom covenant and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) just like everyone has since the day of Pentecost.

The "church" is in reality, the kingdom of Israel, it belongs to Israel. Gentiles are grafted in. Many think of the "church" as a gentile entity separate from Israel, some say that God rejected Israel forever, which is not true.

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[Keras]

14 minutes ago, abcdef said:

What should we expect to see when "all Israel" will be saved?  

Thinking that the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, are the 'All Israel', of that prophecy, is serious error.  They are prophesied to be removed, along with all the evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14   Only a Christian remnant will survive, hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27, +

The new inhabitants of all of the holy Land, will be every faithful Christian. John sees then there in Revelation 7:9.