Alex, for $1,000.00 I'll Take Angels

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Dennis

 Right now Im tired & want to sign off but Im really glad I saw this and will join you tomorrow to talk about angels & the different types of angels there arev. Sounds fun & interesting, as your Topics usually are!

Good morning, Kwik,

That would be wonderful. There are a plethora of interesting things to discuss. The hierarchy of princes and powers; the angel of the Lord; Hebrew name meanings; are Beasts, Cherubim, Seraphim, Lucifer-Satan, the Death angel, and angels (messenger) all the same? 

The Bible has a lot about demons, demon worship, and demonic possession. Are demons fallen, angels? If so, why is there no mention of unclean spirits, evil spirits, devils, demons, or demonic possession before the flood of Noah? 

Bring your most oversized suitcase. There’s a lot to unpack. 
 

[kwikphilly]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:54 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Blessings Dennis

     This is not a Topic that I usually engage in much but because you are the OP I'm in(for a bit) .Normally I'm not participating because so many people rant on & on thinking themselves authorities or experts of the matter when truly so little is known to us from the little pieces of information we can gather up from the One True Authority...the Creator!!!Theres often a mix of verses of Scripture in with lots of extra Biblical information inserted...as we can easily look up (these days) in the Jubilees,Enoch,Apochryphia & many more sources.....but most of those sources are basically unreliable and most are better off staying clear of them

    I chose to begin with the verse of Scripture quoted above from the Book of Daniel.....here we can clearly see that one thing is for sure ,within the unseen realm of spiritual beings(lets call them all angels for right now).....which,as an aside,I do believe they are all angels and just different kinds of angels,or angelic beings ,thats my opinion  As I was saying,what we do know is that their is a hierarchy within the ranks of these angelic beings

    Now if you start mixing the Biblical with the extraBiblical we will conjure up much more about these ranks that was ever revealed by Gods Word...so lets just stick to Scripture    Daniel refers to Michael as a chief prince,we see in Jude1:9 he is called an archangel -from this we can assume Michael is a high ranking angelic being,right?

Quote

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ("For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.     Jude 1:9
 

Well in all honesty we dont know much more about Michael than 3 verses in Daniel & then again in Jude.....In thessalonians we simply read "the Archangel" but not attributed to Michael or any other name .....so are there more? According to Tobias & Tobit there are (7) & this includes a name we see in other extraBiblical texts,Raphael???? Again,truth is we can only speculate

  Lets talk about another angelic being we know from Gods Word,Gabriel....now contrary to what most believe Gabriel is not given the label of archangel according to Scripture,he may or may not be but I think it is unlikely because it seems Gabriel has the task of Delivering a Message whereas Michael is doing battle......yet they are both named ,they are the only 2 angelic beings named throughout the whole of Scripture besides one more.....guess who?

                                                                      With love in Christ ,Kwik

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Dennis

     This is not a Topic that I usually engage in much but because you are the OP I'm in(for a bit) .Normally I'm not participating because so many people rant on & on thinking themselves authorities or experts of the matter when truly so little is known to us from the little pieces of information we can gather up from the One True Authority...the Creator!!!Theres often a mix of verses of Scripture in with lots of extra Biblical information inserted...as we can easily look up (these days) in the Jubilees,Enoch,Apochryphia & many more sources.....but most of those sources are basically unreliable and most are better off staying clear of them

    I chose to begin with the verse of Scripture quoted above from the Book of Daniel.....here we can clearly see that one thing is for sure ,within the unseen realm of spiritual beings(lets call them all angels for right now).....which,as an aside,I do believe they are all angels and just different kinds of angels,or angelic beings ,thats my opinion  As I was saying,what we do know is that their is a hierarchy within the ranks of these angelic beings

    Now if you start mixing the Biblical with the extraBiblical we will conjure up much more about these ranks that was ever revealed by Gods Word...so lets just stick to Scripture    Daniel refers to Michael as a chief prince,we see in Jude1:9 he is called an archangel -from this we can assume Michael is a high ranking angelic being,right?

Well in all honesty we dont know much more about Michael than 3 verses in Daniel & then again in Jude.....In thessalonians we simply read "the Archangel" but not attributed to Michael or any other name .....so are there more? According to Tobias & Tobit there are (7) & this includes a name we see in other extraBiblical texts,Raphael???? Again,truth is we can only speculate

  Lets talk about another angelic being we know from Gods Word,Gabriel....now contrary to what most believe Gabriel is not given the label of archangel according to Scripture,he may or may not be but I think it is unlikely because it seems Gabriel has the task of Delivering a Message whereas Michael is doing battle......yet they are both named ,they are the only 2 angelic beings named throughout the whole of Scripture besides one more.....guess who?

                                                                      With love in Christ ,Kwik

Top of the afternoon to you kwik 

Before I delve into the subject matter of angels, I would like to clarify some of my thoughts, and I do not claim to be correct on everything.

Our Bible is God’s word, a closed canon, inerrant and infallible, no question or debate on that topic. As listed below, what if the Bible says, is it not written in the book of… What about if Peter and Jude quote or reference I Enoch?

The patriarchs, apostles, and Jews read and understood other literature available to them at their time. I suspect if it is listed or mentioned in our Bible (if it still exists or copies), we have a license to read and understand it also.

Like today, how would you witness to a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness if you know nothing about their theology and belief system? Paul on Mars Hill.

Is it a coincidence the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered just a couple of years before Israel became a nation once again on May 14, 1948? Since then, some modern scholarship suspects the following verse, in addition to the context and meaning, might be referencing the scrolls also.

Isaiah 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Many current translations of the Bible’s italics have been updated, which was guessed at from the source copies with missing words. The scrolls verify and confirm we have accurate copies of original manuscripts. There is much unpacking on the DSS and the contents, fragments of I Enoch and fragments of the book of Noah, to name a couple, were found with the scrolls.

What are your thoughts kwik? Should we refrain from reading pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, Josephus, and other extra-biblical material?

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

	OLD TESTAMENT
	Book of the Wars of the Lord	Num. 21:14
	Book of Jasher	Josh. 10:13, 2 Sam. 1:18
	Annals of Jehu	2 Chron. 20:34
	Treatise of the Book of the Kings	2 Chron. 24:27
	Chronicles of Kings	Esther 2:23; 6:1
	Acts of Solomon	1 Kings 11:41
	Sayings of the Seers	2 Chron. 33:19
	Chronicles of King David	1 Chron. 27:24
	Chronicles of Gad the Seer	1 Chron. 29:29
	Treatise of the Prophet Iddo	2 Chron. 13:22
	Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite	2 Chron. 9:29
	Records of Nathan the Prophet	2 Chron. 9:29
	Book of Samuel the Seer	1 Chron. 29:29
	Amalekite Memorial book	Exod. 17:14
	Book of the Covenant	Exod. 24:7
	Wars of the Lord	Num. 21:14
	Law of Kings	1 Sam. 10:25
	Chronicles of the Kings of Israel	1 Kings 14:19
	Chronicles of the Kings of Judah	1 Kings 15:7
	Kings of Judah and Israel	2 Chron. 16:11
	Midrash of the Book of the Kings	2 Chron. 24:27
	Acts of the Kings of Israel	2 Chron. 33:18
	Annals of Jehu	2 Chron. 20:34
	Treatise of the Kings	2 Chron. 24:27
	Acts of Solomon	1 Kings 11:41
	The (3000) Proverbs of Solomon	1 Kings 4:32
	The (1005) Songs of Solomon	1 Kings 4:32
	Solomon’s botany/biology book	1 Kings 4:33
	Sayings/History of Hozai	2 Chron. 33:19
	Chronicles of David	1 Chron. 27:24
	Chronicles of Samuel	1 Chron. 29:29
	Chronicles Nathan the Prophet	1 Chron. 29:29
	History of Nathan the Prophet	2 Chron. 29:29
	Ordinances of Samuel	1 Sam. 10:25
	Records of Nathan the Prophet	2 Chron. 29:29
	Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite	2 Chron. 29:29
	Visions of Iddo the Seer	2 Chron. 29:29
	Genealogy by Iddo the Seer	2 Chron. 12:15
	Chronicles of Shemaiah the Prophet	2 Chron. 12:15
	Treatise of the Prophet Iddo	2 Chron. 13:22
	Treatise of the Prophet Iddo	2 Chron. 13:22
	Chronicles of Jehu, son of Hanani	2 Chron. 20:34
	Acts of Uzziah (by Isaiah)	2 Chron. 26:22
	Vision of Isaiah	2 Chron. 32:32
	Book of the Laments	2 Chron. 35:25
	Book of the LORD	Isa. 34:16
	Book of the Chronicles	Neh. 12:23
New Testament	New Testament
	Fourth Corinthians	1 Cor. 5:9
	Forged Thessalonian letter	2 Thes. 2:2
	Laodiceans	Col. 4:16
	Enoch	Jude 14; Jub. 4:17
	Assention of Moses	Jude 9
	Martyrdom of Isaiah	Heb. 11:37
	Church Fathers
Hebrew Works	Hebrew Works
	Epistle of Elijah	Josephus...
	Prophecies of Adam	Josephus’ Ant. 1.2.3
	Prophecies of Cainan	Jasher 2:11-13
	Pillar of Seth	Josephus’ Ant. 2.3
	Book of Methuselah	Enoch 83
	Book of Lamech	Enoch 106
	Book of Noah	Jub. 21:10, Enoch 107
	Noah’s herbal medicine book	Jub.10:13
	Book of the Fathers

Jub. 12:27; 45:16

 

Book of Abraham

Dead Sea Scrolls

 

Book of Amram

4Q543

 

Eldad and Medad

Dead Sea Scrolls

 

From <https://biblefacts.org/canon/bb-chart.html>

[TheBlade]

"Angels and demons are never said to have wings. "

One of the first dreams the lord gave me I was like 14 and in the dream I saw myself had a huge smile on my face and then with that smile looked up. It was a dark deep blue and so many stars. From the right to the left angels started flying across the sky with wings. Now right there.. I never knew they had wings. That was not the best part.. they were singing..holy Jesus.. I Just turned 61 yesterday and never heard music like that since. The next day I called this friend (grand mother that had a bible study and prayed 4h a day) to pray so I would get that dream and hear that music again. 

Ever hear someone that says they heard music from heaven and you hear Instruments yet there aren none? YEAH that was it.. SO strange but the music.. NOTHING on earth comes close. Prayed all my life to hear it again haha. Worshiping angels have wings.. and I am sure many others. Havent thought of that dream in years.. oh I so so so so miss that music. The singing.. just praise God glory to Jesus. See its not just singing and music.. its ALL going to the Father.. its HIM! They were singing always to Him. It was never for me about the angels.. awesome to learn they had wings but.. they were worshiping the Father...and that music oh no words.. just WOW

[Littlelambseativy]

If the Bible says Angels have wings and fly, as in Revelation, I believe they have wings. There is a hierarchy of angels and I do believe that they can take on human form so as not to cause us to bow down to worship them, as John did and was told not to do it. 
Regarding the heavenly music, I have not heard it, but in the last moments of my mother’s life, at approx. 9pm in the hospital, she broke out in what seemed  amazingly more beautiful than operatic voice and joined in with the heavenly music or the angels singing that only she heard. I recall starting to say, “Mom, you’re going to….” (wake people). Then I stopped…thinking what am I saying?  She is hearing heavenly music and is joining in… neither my sister nor I heard what she heard but we heard her join heaven’s music. So yes, I believe you. I have never heard music as beautiful as what she sang.

[Starise]

The fact that many of these beings have multiple faces and wings beyond the necessity for flight seems to indicate they are more symbolic or ornamental than utilitarian.

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Starise said:

The fact that many of these beings have multiple faces and wings beyond the necessity for flight seems to indicate they are more symbolic or ornamental than utilitarian.

Good morning Starise,

Yes, dividing the symbolic from the literal can be and is challenging. I did a brief word and grammar study on the 64 passages referencing wings. The following example seems to hold mostly true throughout. There are times when “wings” are used literally and symbolically in some of those 64 verses. Right or wrong, the following is one example of how I try to distinguish between the symbolic and literal.

Ezekiel 1:5 (KJV) Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9. Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

The words like, as, as it were, and likeness is similes, comparisons to something that is not equivalent or the same. Ezekiel says you could compare the living creatures to men in the above verse, but they were not men. There are no comparisons with their feet, except for the sparkling and color; they had calves’ feet IMO.

The same vocabulary and grammar would hold for the beast’s wings and hands, literal, as there are no similes or comparisons.

It appears to me, based on other biblical passages, a difference between Cherubim and Seraphim is the number of wings (four-six) and their functions and duties, versus angels and the rest of the heavenly host? As a spiritual group, they could all be called Elohim.  

Whatcha think?

[kwikphilly]

On 3/26/2022 at 6:48 PM, Dennis1209 said:

What are your thoughts kwik? Should we refrain from reading pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, Josephus, and other extra-biblical material?

Blessings Brother

   I'm so glad I noticed this question(havent read the post in its entirety YET but certainly will)    Ive got so little time this morning and I do want to share something)

    Firstly ,personally I've done my due diligence for many many years,years ago.....There is not very much I have not read ,researched & studied....I share this not to sound like some know it all but to answer your question  as best as I can and so you have a better understanding of WHY I'm answering as I do

  It depends on WHO is asking ,WHERE they are in their maturity/walk with Christ,WHY they desire to read these extra Biblical writings and of course WHAT they are reading for the purpose of WHAT reason.......I would never suggest anyone not learn as much as they could or not to go further in education/academics if they are ready to do so.In other words,many times it would be like telling an elementary school child to take a post graduate or tertiary course......this is why I never suggest anyone read outside of Gods Word (unless I knew them well enough to suggest particular writings and I was compelled by Holy Spirit to do so)

    One with a solid foundation can have a much better understanding of why some folks believe as they do when you are familiar with what the source of THEIR info is & also understand the ancient beliefs,traditions & customs as well...by reading ,lets say josephus......

   Anyway,I'm out of time but will be back in a bit to properly read where I left off & then continue on.....always a pleasure Dennis!!!

                                                                      With love in Christ,Kwik

[Starise]

22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning Starise,

Yes, dividing the symbolic from the literal can be and is challenging. I did a brief word and grammar study on the 64 passages referencing wings. The following example seems to hold mostly true throughout. There are times when “wings” are used literally and symbolically in some of those 64 verses. Right or wrong, the following is one example of how I try to distinguish between the symbolic and literal.

Ezekiel 1:5 (KJV) Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9. Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

The words like, as, as it were, and likeness is similes, comparisons to something that is not equivalent or the same. Ezekiel says you could compare the living creatures to men in the above verse, but they were not men. There are no comparisons with their feet, except for the sparkling and color; they had calves’ feet IMO.

The same vocabulary and grammar would hold for the beast’s wings and hands, literal, as there are no similes or comparisons.

It appears to me, based on other biblical passages, a difference between Cherubim and Seraphim is the number of wings (four-six) and their functions and duties, versus angels and the rest of the heavenly host? As a spiritual group, they could all be called Elohim.  

Whatcha think?

Thanks Dennis,

I see some comparison in God's earthly creation, for instance many of the birds we see in the tropics don't necessarily need their bright colors. Instead they seem more ornamental. A scientist might disagree by revealing things about the birds that would specify why the color comes in handy, maybe for things like mating. Male peacocks have their feathers to attract female peacocks. In some creatures though men can see no reason for certain characteristics of different creatures. Often a function is involved even when we don't immediately recognize it. God is both utilitarian and creative. Why do men have nipples and why are women the fairer sex? I am not asking for an answer to this question, just food for thought.

In the heavenly realm it seems to me God has taken liberties He didn't take when making beings on earth. While I believe these are probably real creatures a complete explanation of them is probably not possible to put present minds, so the authors can only use terms that make comparisons to things we recognize.

In that other realm wings might not be necessary at all. The laws of physics that apply here don't apply there. This is why I think there must be some other purpose for both the wings and for the multiple faces. Certainly don't look to be utilitarian in any way. I think it's revealing that the seraphim used some of their wings to cover themselves. If there is a utility here it's concealment.

If these visions are really given as a symbolic way to interpret something, admittedly this would make a lot more sense to the common person instead of attempting to explain why a creature has 4 or 6 wings and only uses two to fly.

Even if we prove these are real creatures, I don't see how we can escape some kind of a symbolic statement in their appearance. That statement has so far, gone uninterpreted so far as I know. Maybe someone has attempted it.

I think they are real in that realm. I also think there is significance in their appearance other than utilitarian. No creature needs multiple faces.

[kwikphilly]

On 3/26/2022 at 6:48 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Our Bible is God’s word, a closed canon, inerrant and infallible, no question or debate on that topic. As listed below, what if the Bible says, is it not written in the book of… What about if Peter and Jude quote or reference I Enoch?

Blessings Dennis

   Brother I really do enjoy discussions with you,I am sure it is not because I always like the Topics but because I always know you will bring up many good things to consider re-consider,evaluate,re-evaluate & you listen well eager to do the same! Always thought provoking......

    I agree & so I would imagine most (me included)would be very interested in finding out (for example) what else does it say since Peter & Jude obviously read it!!!??? The only problem (eg:1 Enoch)is that we can only take it with a grain of salt simply because we really have no way of knowing what we have available today is actually what Peter & Jude were reading from ,except for those fragments & pieces that have been validated as authetic(even then one has to wonder) & since all we really have is pseudepigrapha then we must be very mindful of that

   I have no doubt that in those days the men who could read (& those who had access or permission)probably read whatever they could get their hands on.....eg:1 Sam 10:25

Quote

²⁵ Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.

Lets not forget that just because a scroll is legitimized as being written within that 200yrs of Christs life ,death & resurrection if it is pseudepigrapha then without knowing who to attribute those writings how can we know the purpose of them.....even in that day the enemy was busy at work deceiving the children of God,he was a liar from the beginning!

   Its a lot to consider & so "reader be careful,be wise,pray and use the sound mind God Gave us!"

    Back to Angels,lol In reading the dialogue between you & Starise I can only think of what you & I touched on briefly regarding things that Paul was trying to describe in the Book of Revelation.....I wonder if the creature with many faces is a creature at all or something else,I kind of think it is indeed a celestial being but I do take so very much literally ,it is very difficult for me to distinguish the literal from the symbolic(as you say "it is challenging))..... Do I believe some angels have 6 wings,absolutely! Why not,the Bible Says so! 

   Id like to hear what you have to say so far or I feel like I'm rambling,lol

                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik