The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[kenny2212]

8 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Who are they?

See 2 Cor. 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23, 1 Thess. 4:13-18, Rev. 20:4-6

[angels4u]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would say the sum total of God's wrath is to be thrown into the lake of fire. The ultimate vengeance would be your enemy tormented forever. Whatever comes at the end when Jesus arrives is more a pleading to turn than what we think of as wrath.  Wrath doesn't come upon the flesh but upon the eternally tormented soul. God uses pain and suffering to get our attention, not to punish, but for our growth. It doesn't work for everyone but it does for some.

So then your 500 year old tormenter will be raised for the judgement and judged according to his or her works, as in Matt 25. 

During the time of God's and Jesus' wrath if people die without acknowledging Christ as Lord they will effectively be cast into the pit after the GWT judgement.

What if your tormenter of 500 years ago turned to Christ on their deathbed and you didn't know it? Now they are a brother in Christ. 

In the end I see wrath as the ultimate death of the soul in the lake of fire. The rest is pleading to change hearts so souls are saved from that wrath.

 

 

 

 

Quote

So then your 500 year old tormenter will be raised for the judgement and judged according to his or her works, as in Matt 25. 

I believe you forgot a  ,5000 year old tormenter ..

[transmogrified]

21 minutes ago, Josheb said:

But mostly it's because Jesus, Paul, Peter, at al were not speaking or writing directly to us. They were speaking to those living in their era about things that would happen to them. That is self-evident if and when the words in scripture are read as written. 

Hello Josheb again....:)

Please forgive me if I am not understanding what you are saying in the above quote but it seems to me this was the question you were asking me about...which was the thought that because Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples about what would be the sign of his coming and of the end of the world, that he was talking directly to those disciples and not to us in our day?

Bless You- Gary 

[George]

40 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

which was the thought that because Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples about what would be the sign of his coming and of the end of the world, that he was talking directly to those disciples and not to us in our day?

Honestly, it was written to all ... we just happen to be alive when we see ALL OF THESE THINGS ... that was the disclaimer ...

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 

We know its not for the 1st century alone ... for the gospel was not yet PREACHED to ALL NATIONS!

Until next time ... 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

That's not what the scriptures cited say. In point of fact there is no mention of "the Lord's Day" found in Revelation 16:14" and there is no mention of Jesus coming to earth on that day. Peter uses the same phrase in 2 Peter 3:12 when all things are destroyed, and the heavens and the earth are made new. John and Peter appear to be using the phrase to apply to two completely different events. John places the new earth in Revelation 21, five chapters worth of event after his only mention of the day of God. 

I am alternately amused, concerned, sometimes frustrated when someone asserts a point and then cites a scripture to support the point but the scriptures says absolutely nothing about the point being asserted. All the more so when the question asked is not answered. There is no mention of the Lord's Day in this text. The question asked was, "What makes you think those who pierced Jesus in Revelation 1:7 were dead when Revelation 1:7 was written?" 

 

What makes you think those who pierced Jesus in Revelation 1:7 were dead when Revelation 1:7 was written? 

 

The response, "What does it matter?" is not an answer to that question. It dismisses the question. One of the reasons this may be important is because if the verse was speaking about people who were still alive then perhaps the verse is also talking about a time when they were still living. Many just assume things about this verse that aren't anywhere supported by the immediately surrounding text itself. For example, as I already posted, it is possible the reference is the last day. Depending on how much inference a person is willing to make we could all be considered those who have pierced Christ because we're all sinners and it was for our sins he was pierced. I think that takes too much liberty but, meh, okay. I don't read anything in the verse, Revelation 1:7 verse, or its surrounding text, that says those who pierced Jesus are dead and I do not read anything mentioning the Lord's Day. In point of fact the only even remotely close references to the Lord's Day I can find in the entire book of Revelation are "the day of their wrath," and "the great day of God almighty." The latter is a possible link to the Thessalonians' letters because of the phrase "like a thief in the night" but neither text says Jesus steps foot on earth. 

 

So, I have a bunch more questions for you, if you are willing. 

Can we start with the one already asked. 

 

What makes you think those who pierced Jesus in Revelation 1:7 were dead when Revelation 1:7 was written? 

Do I think those who pierced Jesus were dead when Revelation was written?  I have no way of knowing one way or the other do I?    Do you?  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

That's not what the scriptures cited say. In point of fact there is no mention of "the Lord's Day" found in Revelation 16:14" and there is no mention of Jesus coming to earth on that day.

Let me show you where it is written

(I admit, the Holy Spirit must be called on to connect the dots much of the time because if all information had to be given in every passage to make the point, the Book would still be being written).  

It starts here
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

The response, "What does it matter?" is not an answer to that question. It dismisses the question. One of the reasons this may be important is because if the verse was speaking about people who were still alive then perhaps the verse is also talking about a time when they were still living. Many just assume things about this verse that aren't anywhere supported by the immediately surrounding text itself. For example, as I already posted, it is possible the reference is the last day. Depending on how much inference a person is willing to make we could all be considered those who have pierced Christ because we're all sinners and it was for our sins he was pierced. I think that takes too much liberty but, meh, okay. I don't read anything in the verse, Revelation 1:7 verse, or its surrounding text, that says those who pierced Jesus are dead and I do not read anything mentioning the Lord's Day. In point of fact the only even remotely close references to the Lord's Day I can find in the entire book of Revelation are "the day of their wrath," and "the great day of God almighty." The latter is a possible link to the Thessalonians' letters because of the phrase "like a thief in the night" but neither text says Jesus steps foot on earth. 

The name of the BOOK should solve all those issues at once.  

And do we really have to start from the beginning in every thread?  Just to shorten the number of posts what I agree and disagree with that I can think of right now are

Leviticus 26 punishment for disobeying.  Didn't come to pass till 1948.  The end of the end times couldn't have begun before then.  So the Lords Day couldn't have happen in 70 AD.  70 AD did fulfill a few prophecies but not the end times.  GOD OBVIOUSLY considers 'the end times' to BEGIN with CHRIST and even though you don't agree and need to make it about the past, the end times have continued on for the past 2000 years or 2 days God time.  For AT HAND to be the determining factor doesn't work for me, while 'the 1000 years to be completed does'.

So if you would like to ask me questions based on already determined knowledge please do.  Oh, and  I  don't believe that every verse contains all information but I do believe it is one reason WHY JESUS SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT TO LEAD AND GUIDE US.  So this 'lack of what is found' so it can't be,  doesn't work for me.  He comes in clouds, He comes on a horse, He comes with saints, He comes with angels, doesn't mean He comes 5 times and even though they don't say all that stuff every time doesn't mean they don't all go together.    

I know you want to break it down to one fact at a time but I don't/can't think that way.  I SERVE GOD differently than you do.  Let us pray.  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, both sides. God can show His wrath to people who are still living on earth, those who have not physically died. God can also show His wrath to those who have died and stand before him to account for their words and deeds. Both sides of the grave. 

Yes?

Ah, now I see.  Thank you

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

One of the reasons is because the only people predicting his 21st century coming come from a very long line of false teachers who have never once made a correct prediction.

Just as Satan prescribed.  Muddy up the waters so the bottom can't be seen.  Make it so bad that THEY DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE.  Take the parts that are really telling truth and surround them with so much false information no one will dare try and find the truth.  YES, I understand

 

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

If some of the passages people think will be literal actually are literal then life does not survive. No life survives.

AND THAT IS TRUTH.  NO ONE SURVIVES as we are NOW.  WE are mortal.  What appears to be the 'end of all life' is ONLY the ending OF THAT SPECIFIC LIFE.  BUT God tells us LIFE GOES ON IN ANOTHER WAY.  ALL knowledge of THIS LIFE will be gone.  Just like all of this life will end.  AND THERE WAS A NEW BEGINNING.  A NEW LIFE.  A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH and we are being INVITED to go there.  BUT WE HAVE TO BE WILLING TO GIVE UP THIS LIFE.  We have to be willing to LIVE in that place NOW, WHILE WE HAVE A CHOICE.  We are a blade of grass that lives and dies in one day.  THAT is all this life amounts to.  The entire thing is to find out WHO WE REALLY ARE.  

Spiritual eyes.  WE LET GO of what we SEE and we SEE the UNSEEN and the unseen is the TRUE LIFE and we are presently WALKING THROUGH THE VALLEY OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH. This isn't the TRUE LIFE by any stretch of the imagination. 

[George]

@Josheb  Do you believe in the Millennial Reign of Jesus as a future event?