The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

First the natural, then the spiritual.  King David was already the physical type and shadow of Christ's kingdom to come.  Why would God want another weak natural kingdom after the perfect has come?

And how could that be possible anyway when judgment day and the physical realm being burned up happens at the coming of Christ?  Everyone in the lake of fire....who would be left to populate the earth.  2 Peter 3 says we're looking for a new heavens/earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, not the devil and not the unsaved.  1 Thessalonians 4 says we shall forever be with the Lord when He comes.... not back on this earth to be attacked by the devil and his army again!  So many contradictions with believing in a future millennial kingdom. ( We better not be telling any person or nation they still have a 1000 year chance to be saved after Jesus comes.)

Future thousand year reign just doesn't make sense and never did.  We have to start inventing scenarios that aren't in scripture in order to try and make it make sense....called wresting the scriptures.  I used to try, but never successfully.  Now it all clicks into place without any wresting needed, just in understanding that Jesus' rule and reign, His kingdom come on earth, within the believer, His church, is now.

The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let’s go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
So that He may teach us about His ways,
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go out from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And He will judge between the nations,
And will mediate for many peoples;
And they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning knives.
Nation will not lift up a sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.  Isaiah 2:1-4

[Heleadethme]

15 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let’s go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
So that He may teach us about His ways,
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go out from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And He will judge between the nations,
And will mediate for many peoples;
And they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning knives.
Nation will not lift up a sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.  Isaiah 2:1-4

Yes, because He gives us PEACE.  This too is a prophecy looking ahead to the Messiah/Christ and His kingdom.   He came physically to physical Zion and began preaching His gospel there...but His kingdom is from heavenly Zion, and that is where He is ruling from now.  The nations here is speaking of those Gentiles from the nations who would come to believe in Him.  Plowing and reaping spiritual harvests, instead of belonging to the kingdoms of this world that are constantly at war with one another.....and perhaps specifically alluding to their being no more war (enmity) between believing Israel and believing Gentiles, the dividing wall has been taken down.

Eph 2:14-17

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Last Daze]

9 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes, because He gives us PEACE.  This too is a prophecy looking ahead to the Messiah/Christ and His kingdom.   He came physically to physical Zion and began preaching His gospel there...but His kingdom is from heavenly Zion, and that is where He is ruling from now.  The nations here is speaking of those Gentiles from the nations who would come to believe in Him.  Plowing and reaping spiritual harvests, instead of belonging to the kingdoms of this world that are constantly at war with one another.....and perhaps specifically alluding to their being no more war (enmity) between believing Israel and believing Gentiles, the dividing wall has been taken down.

Eph 2:14-17

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

I'll just take it for what it says.

[Alive]

4 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

First the natural, then the spiritual.  King David was already the physical type and shadow of Christ's kingdom to come.  Why would God want another weak natural kingdom after the perfect has come?

And how could that be possible anyway when judgment day and the physical realm being burned up happens at the coming of Christ?  Everyone in the lake of fire....who would be left to populate the earth.  2 Peter 3 says we're looking for a new heavens/earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, not the devil and not the unsaved.  1 Thessalonians 4 says we shall forever be with the Lord when He comes.... not back on this earth to be attacked by the devil and his army again!  So many contradictions with believing in a future millennial kingdom. ( We better not be telling any person or nation they still have a 1000 year chance to be saved after Jesus comes.)

Future thousand year reign just doesn't make sense and never did.  We have to start inventing scenarios that aren't in scripture in order to try and make it make sense....called wresting the scriptures.  I used to try, but never successfully.  Now it all clicks into place without any wresting needed, just in understanding that Jesus' rule and reign, His kingdom come on earth, within the believer, His church, is now.

Amen! An interesting tapestry can be seen by reviewing every verse in the NT where 'kingdom' is mentioned. The King(dom) in heaven and the expressing of the reality of that kingdom seen on earth in those that serve Him. Those with the indwelling Christ.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Alive

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Amen! An interesting tapestry can be seen but reviewing every verse in the NT where 'kingdom' is mentioned. The King in heaven and the expressing of the reality of that kingdom seen on earth in those that serve Him. Those with the indwelling Christ.

Amen.  It is only seen and known by FAITH.  Jesus said to the Jews, " If I by the finger of God cast out demons, then the kingdom has come to you."  What kingdom?....the one that had been prophesied in the Jewish scriptures.  So we're not waiting for it to come, it's already here and Jesus is it's King.

[Alive]

17 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Amen.  It is only seen and known by FAITH.  Jesus said to the Jews, " If I by the finger of God cast out demons, then the kingdom has come to you."  What kingdom?....the one that had been prophesied in the Jewish scriptures.  So we're not waiting for it to come, it's already here and Jesus is it's King.

It is more than abundantly clear when a thorough reading is done.. There has never been a time when Christ did not rule. At risk of a diversion--there are two things that I gleaned from reading/listening to Heiser.

1. His commentary on Naaman

2. He translates "the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church" "to and the gates of hell (a gate being a defensive gadget) shall not withstand the Church. This is a triumphant Church rather than one in defensive posture.

[Marathoner]

There are excellent responses in this topic and so my contribution rests upon an overarching theme revealed to us first in the Gospels, and then reinforced in the letters of the apostles:

All things are revealed in Jesus Christ. What was veiled in days of old is spoken plainly to us by the Son of God, by whom the Father speaks to man. This complements what @Josheb stated regarding the Son of Man, and how He corrected the errors of devout Jews in the following way: "You have heard it said... But I say..."

So right away, we see how the Lord God spoke to men plainly in Jesus Christ. He walked among us in this flesh! 

And we also read how the Lord rebuked those same devout Jews who looked forward to an earthly Messianic kingdom, and how He spoke to them in parables. But to those whom He had chosen --- the disciples who abandoned their lives to follow Him --- He spoke plainly, explaining the meaning of those parables.

The Son of Man was NOT the earthly ruler of an earthly kingdom expected by devout Jews, whom He rebuked with strong words for their hardened hearts and blindness, so of course they rejected Him. The Lord Almighty was not whom they expected Him to be.

They also rejected His prophets and even murdered them. His coming in the flesh satisfied a great deal of prophecy in the Tanakh --- virtually all of it --- which the Gospel of Matthew faithfully records. His death, resurrection, and ascension to sit with God the Father upon His throne is proof that the reign of Jesus Christ, the King which was promised in ancient times, commenced on that very day. 

The author of Matthew's Gospel was a preterist of his day, so great care should be taken in how "preterist" is bandied about as a pejorative label. Understand what this means by the scriptures instead of material sourced from dispensational premillennialist sources. 

Peter is our example of the devout Jew who did not comprehend what was to happen to Christ, in spite of the Lord explaining all of this to the disciples before it came to pass. We recall the point in the Gospels when the Lord spoke of what was going to happen...

What was Peter's response? He rebuked the Lord, so the Lord rebuked him for being consumed with the things of this world. This wasn't the only time the Lord rebuked Peter for adhering to the errors of the Jews after this flesh. 

So clearly, the Tanakh (the Law and the Prophets) must be understood according to New Testament scripture, and this understanding is imparted to us by the Spirit of Christ who breathed ALL of the scriptures. By this, we know that:

Not all Israel is Israel;

We are Jews inwardly; there is no profit in the circumcision of flesh;

There is no Jew nor Greek in Christ Jesus;

God does not dwell in houses made by human hands (He never has!);

We are a holy nation of kings and priests, living stones in the temple raised without human hands (the Body of Christ raised on the third day);

All of which rebukes (and corrects) the earthly Messianic kingdom hoped for by Jews and preached by dispensational premillennialists. It is better to address theology with scripture and refrain from erecting straw men to bash upon, yes? 

We understand disp. premil. well enough to answer this theology with scripture. It would be great if disp. premils would extend the same courtesy to those of us who are amillennial in theology.

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Marathoner
typo

[debrakay]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:36 PM, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Hi DeighAnn - Great thread!  Thank you for the question!

Your verse reference here and the fact I recently studied it prompted me to add this little controversial tidbit.  It shows how one small little word can make a big difference which is why we rely on the power and discernment of the Holy Spirit for personal interpretation of scripture. 

Did you know they found this scripture written differently in the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus? I just read about this last week.  I believe the writer of that article (which I cannot find now) said the King James compilers used several other translations for comparison and used that version with the word "NOT" in the first part of the scripture which is what we read today.  It's a big difference in the two.

One reads:  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"

but the others reads, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall all sleep, but we shall not all be changed"

[debrakay]

I love coming into threads like these to learn more.  Participating is another story as many of you are way out of my league speaking in theological terms.  I can only witness and testify in my own particular, simple way though I know the word of God can be spoken in simple ways and still convey the same impact by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thank you all for posting in Worthy so that I can glean, learn, discern, and share back to others in the way the Lord has me working in the fields. 

Many blessings to you all!!

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

What if a mass murder was caught, thrown in prison, heard the Chaplin preach salvation, was convicted by the Spirit, had the epiphany, confessed and became sincerely born again, then was killed by some crazy inmate, all in the space of a month, is he not not born again of the Spirit and a brother in Christ?

This reminds me of the parable of the workers in Matthew 20.

Here is what the Lord said

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

Rape murder same
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.


Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


Do you think God changed?  

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


I think it all boils down to this one thing.  GOD is Just. 

Ok 2. 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.