The Logos (Word)

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Alive...

 This seems quite a different flow than I expected..... Perhaps I completely misunderstood your implication of " Logos" ( capital L)" in regards to " logos"( lower case) in our original conversation? It could be possible since it can be a pet peeve of mine when people often apply logic & reasoning OVER Gods Truth which we KNOW is not always equivelant to mans facts (Understanding -Holy Spirit)

 Would it be okay if we found the beginning of our brief exchange on the subject? Do you recall where it was, I dont remember.... Id really like to revisit that- oh, & btw this is quite a good thread imo with some fantastic replies!

With love in Christ, Kwik

[kwikphilly]

Hi Again.,..

 In case you( or anyone for that matter) may wonder why the topic of " logic" really grabs my attention Id like to give a brief Testimony( dont think its off Topic, hope thats okay)

 Years ago I was diagnosed as having Stage IV cancer- each pet scan revealed the cancer spreading further & further- the logical deduction was that I was not long for this life....

 No need to elaborate, you get the jist.... I stood firmly on Gods Word, I told everyone having ears that mans facts are NOT Gods Truth, that I will hear no evil report!

Anyway, I was told at times my thinking was completely illogical.... I most certainly agreed! Lol.  Glory to God- still here!

 With love in Christ, Kwik

 

[Alive]

Welcome to the OP, Kwik.

I am glad that nobody thinks that I mean in any way to suggest we can fathom God on our own. That was a world away from my point. I was and am only pointing to Christ’s greatness and to encourage all to think of Him in an ever enlarging way.

Most do not. As our understanding is increased, we then see the wonder and expansiveness of His Work in us. Changed into His Likeness. Sons, born of His Nature. In His Image. Both Restoration and a completing. A heck of a ride, the Father ordained for us ‘in Christ’.

That is the Key.

 

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Hi Again.,..

 In case you( or anyone for that matter) may wonder why the topic of " logic" really grabs my attention Id like to give a brief Testimony( dont think its off Topic, hope thats okay)

 Years ago I was diagnosed as having Stage IV cancer- each pet scan revealed the cancer spreading further & further- the logical deduction was that I was not long for this life....

 No need to elaborate, you get the jist.... I stood firmly on Gods Word, I told everyone having ears that mans facts are NOT Gods Truth, that I will hear no evil report!

Anyway, I was told at times my thinking was completely illogical.... I most certainly agreed! Lol.  Glory to God- still here!

 With love in Christ, Kwik

 

Love you sister

[Dennis1209]

I was getting back to logos, reasoning, logic, understanding, and definitions. Logically this is a complex issue well beyond my paygrade. Reading this thread, I was asking myself some questions and realized how tough the conversation could become without breaking it down into bite-size pieces, for example:

Are logic, reasoning, and critical thinking gifts, or are they attributes given only to all of humanity? Are they possessed equally among society, or do some have more than others? Have people learned them over time and from experience, or are they built-in?

How and from who do we develop knowledge, wisdom, and discernment? What are the correct logos? What differentiates our intelligence and attributes from the animal kingdom?  Is everyone born rational? Does everyone understand that if A is this, B cannot be…

A child is standing at the gas stove staring at his mother, and his mother is looking at him. He is slowly raising his arm and hand to touch the pretty blue gas flame on one of the burners. Is that logical, wise, reasonable, or intelligent? What would the thoughts of that child be, say 15 years from then?

Yes, sir Alive, you have given us much to ponder and discuss.  😊 It would be hard to stay on topic, as it spreads out like a family tree. LoL

[angels4u]

29 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I was getting back to logos, reasoning, logic, understanding, and definitions. Logically this is a complex issue well beyond my paygrade. Reading this thread, I was asking myself some questions and realized how tough the conversation could become without breaking it down into bite-size pieces, for example:

Are logic, reasoning, and critical thinking gifts, or are they attributes given only to all of humanity? Are they possessed equally among society, or do some have more than others? Have people learned them over time and from experience, or are they built-in?

How and from who do we develop knowledge, wisdom, and discernment? What are the correct logos? What differentiates our intelligence and attributes from the animal kingdom?  Is everyone born rational? Does everyone understand that if A is this, B cannot be…

A child is standing at the gas stove staring at his mother, and his mother is looking at him. He is slowly raising his arm and hand to touch the pretty blue gas flame on one of the burners. Is that logical, wise, reasonable, or intelligent? What would the thoughts of that child be, say 15 years from then?

Yes, sir Alive, you have given us much to ponder and discuss.  😊 It would be hard to stay on topic, as it spreads out like a family tree. LoL

You're right to ask what Logos means to the Christian

I usually don't  post "gotquestions" but this explains it very well:

Logos is the Greek term translated as “word,” “speech,” “principle,” or “thought.” In Greek philosophy, it also referred to a universal, divine reason or the mind of God.

In the New Testament, the Gospel of John begins, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4). Here it is clear that the “Word” or Logos is a reference to Jesus Christ.

John argues that Jesus, the Word or Logos, is eternal and is God. Further, all creation came about by and through Jesus, who is presented as the source of life. Amazingly, this Logos came and lived among us: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

John’s Gospel begins by using the Greek idea of a “divine reason” or “the mind of God” as a way to connect with the readers of his day and introduce Jesus to them as God. Greek philosophy may have used the word in reference to divine reason, but John used it to note many of the attributes of Jesus. In John’s use of the Logos concept, we find that

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”)
-Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)
-Jesus is God (“the Word was God.”)
-Jesus is Creator (“All things were made through him”)
-Jesus is the Giver of Life (“In him was life”)
-Jesus became human to live among us (“the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”)

Further, the opening of John’s Gospel carries a striking resemblance to Genesis 1:1.

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him…” (John 1:1).

(The corresponding theme of “light” is also used in both Genesis 1 and John 1.)

Logos is used in many ways, yet in John’s Gospel Logos is a clear reference to Jesus, the God who both created us and lived among us. Logos became a theological term important to Christians in the early church and remains a concept of significant influence today.

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-Logos.html

 

[Alive]

38 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I was getting back to logos, reasoning, logic, understanding, and definitions. Logically this is a complex issue well beyond my paygrade. Reading this thread, I was asking myself some questions and realized how tough the conversation could become without breaking it down into bite-size pieces, for example:

Are logic, reasoning, and critical thinking gifts, or are they attributes given only to all of humanity? Are they possessed equally among society, or do some have more than others? Have people learned them over time and from experience, or are they built-in?

How and from who do we develop knowledge, wisdom, and discernment? What are the correct logos? What differentiates our intelligence and attributes from the animal kingdom?  Is everyone born rational? Does everyone understand that if A is this, B cannot be…

A child is standing at the gas stove staring at his mother, and his mother is looking at him. He is slowly raising his arm and hand to touch the pretty blue gas flame on one of the burners. Is that logical, wise, reasonable, or intelligent? What would the thoughts of that child be, say 15 years from then?

Yes, sir Alive, you have given us much to ponder and discuss.  😊 It would be hard to stay on topic, as it spreads out like a family tree. LoL

I think most of what you say here, Dennis--is actually very simple.

One of the most marvelous aspects of His initial 'Grace' (I am big on Grace) LOL--is as a part of His sharing 'Being' with us and that being in His image, IS precisely the ability to think, to observe and to appreciate the universe that He constructed for us to 'exist' in. He structured our minds in such a way that is parallel to the way His universe works---which Creation is after His Image and literally expresses Himself.

The Logos of God spoke it all into existence as an expression of Himself and then Adam, the same. In His mind, from before Gen. 1.1--was that all things would be summed up in Himself in an ever inceasing expansion in both scope and quality.

Changed into His Likeness....."""""""IN CHRIST"""""""" that wee phrase is the key. In Christ. We think and move and have our 'being'. Here we are back at 'being'.

LOL

We think the way we do because that is how He thinks and it is inherent in what He created. So, then to grasp in an even rudamentary way--our Maker--it is required to have been made the way we are.

"We are marvelously made" Don't check your brain at the door, but also be assured that we need the Paraclete--to illuminate what we see.

Our God is Great!

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Alive
typo

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Further, the opening of John’s Gospel carries a striking resemblance to Genesis 1:1.

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him…” (John 1:1).

Yup..and it is no accident!

Read my post above.

[Dennis1209]

47 minutes ago, angels4u said:

You're right to ask what Logos means to the Christian

I usually don't  post "gotquestions" but this explains it very well:

Logos is the Greek term translated as “word,” “speech,” “principle,” or “thought.” In Greek philosophy, it also referred to a universal, divine reason or the mind of God.

In the New Testament, the Gospel of John begins, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4). Here it is clear that the “Word” or Logos is a reference to Jesus Christ.

John argues that Jesus, the Word or Logos, is eternal and is God. Further, all creation came about by and through Jesus, who is presented as the source of life. Amazingly, this Logos came and lived among us: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

John’s Gospel begins by using the Greek idea of a “divine reason” or “the mind of God” as a way to connect with the readers of his day and introduce Jesus to them as God. Greek philosophy may have used the word in reference to divine reason, but John used it to note many of the attributes of Jesus. In John’s use of the Logos concept, we find that

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”)
-Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)
-Jesus is God (“the Word was God.”)
-Jesus is Creator (“All things were made through him”)
-Jesus is the Giver of Life (“In him was life”)
-Jesus became human to live among us (“the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”)

Further, the opening of John’s Gospel carries a striking resemblance to Genesis 1:1.

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him…” (John 1:1).

(The corresponding theme of “light” is also used in both Genesis 1 and John 1.)

Logos is used in many ways, yet in John’s Gospel Logos is a clear reference to Jesus, the God who both created us and lived among us. Logos became a theological term important to Christians in the early church and remains a concept of significant influence today.

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-Logos.html

 

No comment, I could not agree more or said it better. 

[kwikphilly]

Ah,found it-fantastic!!!lol    HERES WHERE IT ALL STARTED.....Lets see our replies -I do think its worth copying,we do have some interesting conversations.....

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Morning kwik---I opened my bible to Col. this morning and began to read to find verse 1:6.

Col. 1:3 (NAS20S)    We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, ⁴ since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; ⁵ because of the hope reserved for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel ⁶ which has come to you, just as   in all the world also it is bearing fruit and increasing,

²³ if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a  minister.

Difficult to start reading in Col. and not continue.

:-)

Also: Acts 2:5 (NAS20S)   Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

If you do a few logical searches in bible software at home or online with words like--every, all, nation, peoples, creation, world, etc. you will find this all over the bible. Logical meaning this as an example: every <and> nation.

So I was pointing out that all and every, etc. doesn't necessarily mean, in all scriptures what it is made out to be by some folks.       Alive

 

 

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Thank you for that,I wanted to understand  the context of YOUR thinking & that did explain where you are coming from.....but "logic",well we can leave that for another time-lol       Kwik

 

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Morning sister Kwik. I reckon it comes down to a measure of uncertainty, that I think, ought to be faced squarely. I think sometimes when facing a measure of uncertainty, we remove the uncertainty by fitting it into a chosen construct, rather than waiting for and looking for additional information. Those constructs, whether true or not are then strengthened….in our minds.

True information always results in uncertainty reduction.

Christ, the Logos, actually means the logical reason for all things.

He made us capable of logic. It is how we are to think…if healthy.    Alive

 

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Blessings & Good Morning Brother Alive

   I do think its best to have a discussion regarding "LOGOS" AND "logic" in another thread as imo it is simply another distraction from the Topic of this Thread,which I do believe is a very important matter regarding current events=which,sadly is not going to make headline news and its highly likely we(as a Nation) are not even going to hear one tiny, little, brief statement about it by the media in any way ,shape or form!

Getting back to your comment about "logic" and referencing LOGOS/CHRIST seems a bit odd to me because even though the origins of the word "logic" do stem from "logos"( a word, reckoning, thought)-please note the use of lower case here only,it is a far stretch from Bible application or to even consider our use today of the word"logic"was even closely related to the actual meaning if LOGOS where the Apostle John calls Jesus the Logos

 For an example & I really do not want to go on & on about this with many many words using extensive vocabulary to try and dazzle the reader so they may think I am some literary genius-not my style and not EVER my intention.....I am nothing without Christ but here is the thing with me about folks who often refer to"logic"to validate the deductions of their own reasoning(not that of Holy Spirit)....and I am not implying that is what you have done & no disrespect intended,its simply one of my pet peeves as many use this method to avoid contradiction as though it provides some form of evidence for correct reasoning    Anyway,heres the thing

Quote

Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

And lean not on your own understanding;

In all your ways acknowledge Him,

And He shall direct your paths.

Having said all that I want to get back to the proper definition of logos(lower case)-lets use Hebrew as an example(one of many btw):

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Philo (c. 20 BC – c. 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term logos to mean an intermediary divine being or demiurge. Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.

and the concept of logos(Greek,again lower case)

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A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.

Now when we put a capital there-WOW!  "Logoswe have an entirely different meaning

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In Greek philosophy, the logos remains an impersonal force, a lifeless and abstract philosophical concept that is a necessary postulate for the cause of order and purpose in the universe. In Hebrew thought, the Logos is personal. He indeed has the power of unity, coherence, and purpose, but the distinctive point is that the biblical Logos is a He, not an it.

All attempts to translate the word Logos have suffered from some degree of inadequacy. No English word is able to capture the fullness of John's Logos when he declared that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Attempts have been made by philosophers to translate Logos as logic, act, or deed—all of which are inadequate definitions.(You can read more below....)

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/logos-in-the-bible-definition-and-significance.html

Sorry about the many many words that I tried desparately to avoid,I'm generally not a long winded poste but on this particular subject I could go on even further.....& be happy to in another Thread

Point is when seeking Knowledge & Understanding of the Word of God I do my best to avoid (my) logic and rely not on my own understanding as surely it has proven to be a great hindrance to Receiving the actual Word for THE WORD(LOGOS) which of course is Given by the Power of Holy Spirit

 

                                 With love-in Christ<Kwik