First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[abcdef]

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The alive and remaining are the 'resurrection' of the last day.  

I am not fighting I am getting rid of conflict what ever that takes.  How ever MY beliefs must BE reorganized.  EVERY SEED A BODY.  Is it possible knowing JUST that one verse for me to ever tell anyone 'yes, we go body less because that fits what I believe?' 

Hi DeighAnn,

!st resurrection, Jesus and the OT saints. They hear His voice John 5:25.

2nd resurrection, when Jesus comes for those who are His. Good and evil Jn 5:28-29.

That's it. That is all the resurrections that there are, 2 resurrections.

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So when the Bible shows a resurrection, it is either the first, always Jesus and the first fruits,

Or the second, where the good and evil are resurrected at the last day.

Deciding which resurrection is being shown in the passage is the problem.

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The visions of the Rev are parallel. With overlapping timelines.

If you read the Revelation in sequence this results in counting the total number of times that a resurrection is shown, instead of deciding which resurrection is being indicated, 1st or 2nd.

That is, read in sequence, each time that a person finds evidence of a resurrection, they say something like, "I found another resurrection being shown, that makes 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 resurrections", if read in sequence.

But read as parallel, the resurrection shown must be either the 1st or 2nd. 

==============

Rev 4:1, Not a resurrection. Only John goes through the door.

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The 144,000, multitude that no man can count, 5th seal saints, 24 elders are from the 1st resurrection with Jesus. They heard His voice. They are seen with Jesus and John in the 85-96 AD timeline.

They live and reign with Jesus for the symbolic 1000 year gospel kingdom period on earth that started on the day of Pentecost, just after the 1st resurrection, Lk 17:20-21. 

--

Rev 6:12-17, 6th seal, No resurrection is shown.

--

Rev 11:15-19, The 7th trumpet, is the second coming for salvation, the 2nd resurrection, the rapture. (The belief that there is a planet earth after the 7th trumpet is misleading.)

--

Rev 19:11-21, No 2nd resurrection is shown. Jesus is shown in heaven with the OT saints. It does not say that He returns to planet earth, that is an assumption. 

The passage is understood as symbolic by the use of the sword that comes out of the mouth, it is the gospel sword. That is how Jesus defeats His enemies in the spiritual battle.

The remnant in v 21 is the earth beast.

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That is the end of the Rev 19 timeline. The Rev 20 timeline begins with the 1st resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints. The 1st resurrection is Jesus, always.

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I hope this helps a little. I didn't want to get too long.

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What is a body without a spirit and soul?  dust.  So yes, resurrection is for the whole person.  

I don't know if there is scripture but if 'a body' is raised, that has no body and soul, and I am not being sarcastic,  it is just dirt.  I can't even think of what kind of scripture I would put forth for that. 

I gave you the scripture, and you repeated it in the above posting. Here it is again;

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

The "raising" or "resurrection" is of THE DEAD. And it is their BODY. The next verse gives the restriction - what was "SOWN"! The soul and the spirit are not sown in death! They live on in other places. Does a dead man have a soul and a spirit? That is why our Lord Jesus, in His very first mention of the Church in Matthew 16 says that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against the building of the Church. Why? Because our BODIES make up the Church!

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ ... ? "! (1 Co 6:15a)

As to the rest of your comments and verses, I never addressed anything about a Jew being first or second, or the letters to the Church. I explained that the Olive Tree was NOT Israel, NOR the Church, but a King and His Kingdom. I did not make the Church above the Jew. I doubt if you can find a boastful word. I showed that the Olive Tree allowed Israel's recovery even though they do not believe to the end - to God's HONOR.

There is no scripture that says Israel believe suddenly. They are hardened until the time of the Gentiles ends. When they SEE Jesus "whom they pierced" they will "mourn" as they recognize that He was the Messiah after all. Hebrews 11:1 says that FAITH is in action over what is NOT SEEN. So Israel never have FAITH because their first inkling that the One they so hate is their Messiah, IS WHEN HE IS SEEN. that is why their recovery is all the more glorious. Through Jesus Christ God may "have mercy upon whom He will". That is the grand revelation of the Olive Tree - that God was able, through Christ, to reconcile a Covenant of Promise that promised a Land as an "everlasting possession" with a Covenant of Law that got them ejected from that Land.

The Olive Tree is the way that a sinful and Christ-rejecting Nation is recovered based solely on Christ's Work and God's ability to allow "mercy to kiss righteousness" (Ps.85:10) without violating His righteousness.

I also pointed out that the Olive Tree does not address our subject - resurrection.

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, abcdef said:

Hi DeighAnn,

!st resurrection, Jesus and the OT saints. They hear His voice John 5:25.

2nd resurrection, when Jesus comes for those who are His. Good and evil Jn 5:28-29.

That's it. That is all the resurrections that there are, 2 resurrections.

-------

So when the Bible shows a resurrection, it is either the first, always Jesus and the first fruits,

Or the second, where the good and evil are resurrected at the last day.

Deciding which resurrection is being shown in the passage is the problem.

----

The visions of the Rev are parallel. With overlapping timelines.

If you read the Revelation in sequence this results in counting the total number of times that a resurrection is shown, instead of deciding which resurrection is being indicated, 1st or 2nd.

That is, read in sequence, each time that a person finds evidence of a resurrection, they say something like, "I found another resurrection being shown, that makes 3, 4, 5, 6, or even 7 resurrections", if read in sequence.

But read as parallel, the resurrection shown must be either the 1st or 2nd. 

==============

Rev 4:1, Not a resurrection. Only John goes through the door.

--

The 144,000, multitude that no man can count, 5th seal saints, 24 elders are from the 1st resurrection with Jesus. They heard His voice. They are seen with Jesus and John in the 85-96 AD timeline.

They live and reign with Jesus for the symbolic 1000 year gospel kingdom period on earth that started on the day of Pentecost, just after the 1st resurrection, Lk 17:20-21. 

--

Rev 6:12-17, 6th seal, No resurrection is shown.

--

Rev 11:15-19, The 7th trumpet, is the second coming for salvation, the 2nd resurrection, the rapture. (The belief that there is a planet earth after the 7th trumpet is misleading.)

--

Rev 19:11-21, No 2nd resurrection is shown. Jesus is shown in heaven with the OT saints. It does not say that He returns to planet earth, that is an assumption. 

The passage is understood as symbolic by the use of the sword that comes out of the mouth, it is the gospel sword. That is how Jesus defeats His enemies in the spiritual battle.

The remnant in v 21 is the earth beast.

----

That is the end of the Rev 19 timeline. The Rev 20 timeline begins with the 1st resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints. The 1st resurrection is Jesus, always.

--

I hope this helps a little. I didn't want to get too long.

 

Thank you but I wasn't looking for an explanation, I am looking to see where the Scriptures I put forth and the explanation given would conflict with what you said.  If you could do that, that would be great.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Does a dead man have a soul and a spirit?

Yes, they do.  Or else how could they stand and be judged?  When would God have killed their body and soul before judgment?  

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 

1067. geenna ►
Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Definition: Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Usage: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

So the FIRST DEATH is OF THE EARTH FLESH ONLY. 

Remember the rich man in Hades and Lazarus.  BOTH DEAD as far as 'life on earth in an earthen vessel body', both ALIVE PHYSICALLY in spiritual/heavenly bodies with souls and spirits, one spiritually alive the other spiritually dead

 (let the dead bury their dead)

A BODY without a spirit and soul is called a carcass. 

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So I DONT GET the 'BODIES' thing you are saying.  

No one dies till the end of the millennium in the lake of fire.  ALL the DEAD STILL HAVE THEIR SOULS,  stand in judgment.   No need to judge some one who has no soul.  With out body soul and spirit there is no life.  ALL REQUIRED.  

WE know there will be NO ONE  'in an earth FLESH body'  past the return of Christ

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Does a dead man have a soul and a spirit?

Until the lake of fire YES

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They live on in other places.

Yes they do.  In their OTHER body.  Either in the mansion in the sky or the dust of the earth.  One side of the gulf or the other.  

 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Does a dead man have a soul and a spirit?

 

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, they do.  Or else how could they stand and be judged?  When would God have killed their body and soul before judgment? 

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In every case in the Bible when a man died, he GAVE UP his spirit. The human spirit returns to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). The BODY returns to the elements and the SOUL goes to Hades in the heart of the earth.

A dead man is ripped apart at death. It is "ABSENT from the BODY" in death (2nd Cor.5:8).

There is no case of a dead man being judged. ALL Judgments are for LIVING men.
- Our Lord Jesus "First" descends to Hades, is raised on the third day and tells Mary that He has NOT YET ascended to the Father. He then ascends to present His blood to God. It is then judged good enough for "eternal redemption" (Heb.9:12) and He is given a name above every name.
- The Church is resurrected then raptured then judged at the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10)
- The sheep and the goats are ALIVE when judged (Matt.25:31-46)
- The "rest of the dead" STAND before the White Throne and Hades gives up her dead for this judgment.

There is no record of either Lazarus or the rich man being judged in Luke 16.

But yu wrote it yourself. Quote;

Quote

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment),

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by AdHoc

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

A BODY without a spirit and soul is called a carcass. 

No it is not. The context of Isaiah 66:24 is men in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20 shows that they are FIRST resurrected and then judged worthy of the Lake of Fire. So LIVING MEN are in the Lake of Fire. The designation "carcass" is to show that they are in the Second Death - as Matthew 10:28 shows by the use of the place "Gehenna".

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The alive and remaining are the 'resurrection' of the last day.  

I am not fighting I am getting rid of conflict what ever that takes.  How ever MY beliefs must BE reorganized.  EVERY SEED A BODY.  Is it possible knowing JUST that one verse for me to ever tell anyone 'yes, we go body less because that fits what I believe?' 

No, I personally will not do that,  no matter what.  It is written God gives every seed a body.  THAT is my truth.  EVERY THING FITS AROUND THAT.  I don't get to discard or make exceptions for.  PURIFIED 7 TIMES.  Those would be His words.  I am not going to stand in Judgment and say YES, I taught disembodied souls because I couldn't figure out what you meant.  I would rather teach nothing at all.  I would rather say I  have no idea.  


alive in the dead.   ONLY IN THE BIBLE

 

 

Well, If someone would tell me who we will be ruling over for the 1000 years I would be willing to look into that but all I am told are things like

the nations will escape death when Christ returns YET i READ
 

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

From KING on down to small and any remnant slain with....

 D can read and this kind of math even I can do and the answer is ZERO left alive in flesh bodies when Christ returns.  It isn't in some hidden language I need to figure out.  It is black and white and VIVID and distinct.  

SO if everyone on the earth dies except for the alive and remaining (if I had any questions before I have none now) who are changed

And none of the DEAD rise be they just or unjust are we all just reigning over each other?  

SO when I see 'the dead' standing in judgment and some of them have their names written in the book of life WHO DIDN'T USED TO or else they wouldn't be dead I think HOW did that happen?  from the grave to name in the book of life for ?????  wouldn't it just be so much easier for THE DEAD TO RISE and be reigned over for the next 1000 years to see IF possibly some of them could get their names into the book of life and all the problems and conflicts that PERMINATE beliefs to day could be eliminated and we COULD COME CLOSER IN UNITY.  What I can't do is agree with things that clearly aren't truth,  like disembodied souls in heaven.
 

@angels4u brought up a topic where I posted my thoughts on some of what you bring up.

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Apostles,  THEY NEVER DIED.  Here is what happened to them, they experienced a first resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

They clearly died a physical death. Paul says as much in 2 Timothy. He knew he was on his way to a physical death. After that he knew he would live with Christ.

It's well documented that all the apostles were executed, Stephen being the first, except for John. 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Their earth body was sown into the ground to decay and rot away.   Their SPIRITUAL BODY which now 'housed' their soul/spirit was raised up just like we see written right here
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Their sinful flesh earth body went into the ground USELESS.  Their spiritual body was raised up in glory.   Their body that used to get sick and get old and get diseases was put into the dust of the earth and they raised up in the spiritual body that is full of strength and power  

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

They left the natural body and raised up in the spiritual body.  THERE are 2 bodies.  

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When? No scripture tells us this has happened to anyone after the saints who rose at the death of Jesus. What Paul is writing about happens at the return of Jesus. I don't dispute there are two bodies, it's obvious that is true. 

What you are referring to in 1 Cor 15 occurs here:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

The change from the corruption of death to the imperishability of eternal life comes at the last trump.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HOW does that work? 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

One dies and the other comes to life.  And we can rest assured that that WHEAT or some other grain statement HAS TO DO WITH OUR WORKS THAT DO FOLLOW US.  

I don't know if we know HOW it works, just that it does work. We see the principle, not the mechanics. But just like the seed must die for a time and lay dormant over cold, harsh winters, the body may lay in the grave for some time before the warmth of the sun[Son] raises up new life.

How long did the saints who were raised from the dead at Jesus death lay in the grave? Undeterminable. They got new bodies. Unless we think they were appearing to many in a rotting, walking, corpse, zombie-like. Time isn't a factor. Our souls do not die even as the body rots. We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal. 

Lazarus was dead 3 days. Jesus was dead three days. Both had brand new bodies. 

Honestly I'm not sure about your point.